Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abadi Zavarzmand Shomareh Mowtowr 55


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. ✗ plicit  11:21, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Abadi Zavarzmand Shomareh Mowtowr 55

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Mass-created article made in violation of WP:MASSCREATE/WP:MEATBOT based on the 2006 Iranian census, see Arbitration/Requests/Case/Carlossuarez46 for all the gory details. The Iranian census gathered data by whatever the closest named landmark was, including pumps, factories, farms, bridges, individual houses and so-forth, so this is not actually a legally-recognised community and thus fails WP:GEOLAND#1. The name simply means something like "Abadi Zavarzmand, engine number 55", so this is not a village but instead an engine somewhere within Joghatai village that census-takers have used as a reference point. Typically such engines are used to pump water and thus likely to be a more prominent local feature. Per WP:BUNDLE, every Iranian "village" article we have including the word "Mowtowr" in the title appears to be a hoax/spam article created by the same editor (Carlossuarez46) and therefore can be nominated together. This is demonstrated particularly by: As such bundled deletion is justified. FOARP (talk) 11:07, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * "Mowtowr" is not a Persian-origin word, but instead a relatively-modern English French-origin loan-word and thus highly, highly unlikely to be used as a place-name in Iran.
 * A review of these articles shows that they are all cited either to the Iranian census alone (which is not a list of legally-recognised populated communities) or to the Iranian Census and GEOnet Names Server (which is also not a reliable source).
 * There have been 17 AFD discussion regarding articles with the word "Mowtowr" in the title (see here), every one of which was created by Carlossuarez46 and closed delete/redirect.
 * All of these articles was written according to the same/similar template: "NAME (Persian: PERSIAN, also romanized as ALTERNATE ROMANIZATION) is a village in RURAL DISTRICT, in the DISTRICT of COUNTY, PROVINCE, Iran. At the 2006 census, its population was NUMBER, in FAMILIES."


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Iran. FOARP (talk) 11:07, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete I have come across Carlossuarez46's creations in the past and heard about the Iran cases before. I support deletion per the rationale given by the nominator - census data doesn't confer notability here. Toadspike (talk) 12:05, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete Per nom. With particular emphasis on that theses is no basis or verifiability shown that these are established villages.   Also the one "reference" given is just some type of attempted wiki template which goes nowhere. North8000 (talk) 12:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The reference doesn't go nowhere, it's an Excel file on the website of the Statistical Center of Iran, which probably downloads or opens in Office. Peter James (talk) 12:04, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, Peter James, I think it might be helpful if you read the following discussion where some native Farsi speakers explained to the creator of these articles why being listed as an abadi on this excel spread-sheet is not proof that the location is actual a community: User_talk:Carlossuarez46/Archive_13. I am not a Farsi speaker of any description but I find their explanation compelling. FOARP (talk) 13:58, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete All reminds me of the Augean John Carter cleanup of some 150 cruft/faux UAE place name pages I did a few years back - very similar MO here, too. I must note this AfD is considerably more elegant than my efforts back then, but I do feel the frustration at these idiotic articles - and the damage that they do when apps & websites go geo-scraping WP and end up creating whole communities online that don't exist in the real world. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 15:31, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete all. This single editor has wasted so much of everyone’s time! Mccapra (talk) 15:32, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Iran.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 20:45, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete all per nom. These articles were negligently mass-created with no attempt to verify what the places actually were, and FOARP's explanation shows that these "engine-pumps" were certainly not villages. –dlthewave ☎ 22:14, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete All - Indiscriminate non notable cruft. Likely not even real places. OrgoneBox (talk) 01:05, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete all - AFAICT, all of these articles fail both WP:GNG and WP:GEOLAND#1 — hike395 (talk) 01:49, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete - Does not meet notability guidelines Proton Dental (talk) 10:33, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * At least some of them are real places, for example there is one at 36.698°N, 57.116°W. The "Mowtowr" names are probably similar to the Chak (village) names in Pakistan. Abadi Zavarzmand Shomareh Mowtowr 55 is one of 18 places in Joghatai Rural District for which the census has any information, not too many to mention in a list. Peter James (talk) 11:58, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Peter James - Just to be very, very clear here, "mowtowr" (موتور) is a Farsi loan-word taken from the French word "moteur" meaning "motor" or "engine". It does not mean "village". The full Google Translate version of the name of Abadi Zavarzmand Shomareh Mowtowr 55 in Farsi (ابادي زورزمندشماره موتور55) is "Ibadi Zorzmand, motor number 55". The "real place" listings are likely citogenesis and show why these articles are dangerous.
 * There is no reliable source for these being real, actual communities rather than simply the names of motor-pumps around which the census has been counted. The Iranian census does not distinguish between actual rural communities and simple locations in the countryside around which the census is counted - all are classified as abadi. There is thus no real reason to create a list - the US equivalent would be listing census-tracts within a community. FOARP (talk) 13:31, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * There are streets with buildings, probably a village, at that location. The Chak names are similar, the original meaning was not village. The US equivalent of abadi would be census-designated place. Peter James (talk) 15:27, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The US equivalent (I.e., lowest-level census-taking unit) is a Census tract. We have clear input (with links to supporting documentation) from the FA-speaking community that abadis aren’t the equivalent of villages - see the above-linked discussions where the creation of these pages was roundly condemned. Given that many of the subcontinental geostubs were created algorithmically by Mr Blofeld based on unreliable GNS data I am sceptical that Pakistani Chaks are anyway a useful example, even ignoring WP:OTHERSTUFF. FOARP (talk) 16:06, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Whether there is a lower level or not is not relevant, most of them are names of places (often villages), census tracts are all "Census Tract 14.02" or similar. The main differences between these and census-designated places are that many places too small for CDPs are included, about which not much has been written, and that some farms and factories are included (although some farm names are villages, and it's possible that some factory names are as they can be in the UK). If census recognition does not satisfy the "legal recognition" of WP:GEOLAND, places can still be included in a list in the district's article. I agree GNS is unreliable for some purposes (some country houses designated as "populated place" instead of "building", and occasional coordinate errors) but these are not based on GNS. Peter James (talk) 21:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * , which ones in the list do you believe to be villages? –dlthewave ☎ 22:17, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't know, I was just looking at the first one, but there are other villages (or at least populated places, if "village" is an official status). Mowtowr-e Baluchha (https://www.geonames.org/6986691) looks like a village at that location (should there be an AFD template on that page as it is included in the nomination?), but Mowtowr-e 22 Bahman (https://www.geonames.org/6985457), although it has more people there, it is in Geonames as a farm and does not look like a village. But if included in a list (or even as articles) they could just be described as what the census says they are, we don't have to decide if they are villages or not. Peter James (talk) 22:46, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * To pass WP:Geoland#1 these should be legally recognised populated places. No source describes them as such. Looking at satellite images and describing them as “maybe villages” is WP:OR. Creating a list of rural locations around which the census has been counted simply because they have names in a database rather than numbers is pointless - 23% of Abadi according to Encyclopaedia Iranica do not even have any recorded people counted near them, and many others are palpably not “villages” but "teahouses, mines, railroad stations, and other clearly demarcated installations" so we cannot just use WP:OR to determine which are and are not “villages”. In this case they have names that clearly identify them as not villages. I’ve templated every one I could but since I don’t have AWB it’s possible that some templates were missing - I’ll go and template that one. Geonames is a Wiki-like database and of course not a reliable source anyway. FOARP (talk) 04:57, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * BTW, - Both Abadi Zavarzmand Shomareh Mowtowr 55 and Abadi Zavarzmand Shomareh Mowtowr 52 are both recorded as being at approximately 36.7, 57.1 on OpenStreetMap (which is of course an unreliable, Wiki-like source). Whilst the individual pins are separated by a few hundred metres, the satellite view shows what appears to be a single continuous set of buildings. Which is the "village" and which isn't? Is pump 52 the "village"? Or is it pump 55? Or - as seems much more likely based simply on the names - are they both actually motor-pumps within a real location (possibly a village? but no reliable source says so) called "Zavarzmand"? And how, other than engaging in original research, is any conclusion at all to be reached on that? FOARP (talk) 07:26, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * OSM and Bing show two villages (Google satellite view shows separate groups of streets and buildings about a mile apart, with a few buildings in the gap), pumps 55 and 56, and 52 next to 56 (which is not in the census) but not at the location of a village, so I don't know if 52 or 56 is the other village. There are others but they have different names. Peter James (talk) 14:25, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The fact that it is not clear, which, if any, of these is any kind of actual community, and which not, rather militates against the idea that - even if the interpretation of satellite photos (which is ultimately original research) based on unreliable wiki-like sources to say that these are individual villages is correct - that there is any village by the name "Abadi Zavarzmand Shomareh Mowtowr 55". I note that there is also Chah-e Amiq Shomareh-ye 27 Zuzmand, Chah-e Amiq Shomareh-ye 28 Zurzamand, Chah-e Amiq Shomareh-ye 5 Zurzamand, Chah-e Amiq Shomareh-ye Do Zurzamand, Chah-e Amiq Shomareh-ye Yek Zurzamand, all of which are numbered wells, and all of which appear to be locations within a community called "Zavarzmand" (for which "Zuzmand"/"Zurzamand" are just different romanisations?). FOARP (talk) 11:51, 22 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete All - Indiscriminate mess.PrisonerB (talk) 08:13, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. If any of them should exist, they can be recreated manually. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate database of unreliable WP:TRIVIA, which is what these amount to.Jacona (talk) 11:12, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete all as WP:NOTDATABASE and WP:MASSCREATE violations, with no impediment to individual recreation if editors can find reliable and significant coverage on them. BilledMammal (talk) 03:56, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete all as failures of NOTDATABASE and GEOLAND. Avilich (talk) 17:49, 23 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.