Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abdulla al-Hadj


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Considering that nobody contests the later "keep" opinions based on research into sources, I assume that the earlier "delete" opinions are superseded.  Sandstein  18:35, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Abdulla al-Hadj

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I suspect this is fictional as my searches (even a basic browser search only finds mirrors) found nothing and I even suspect the one book never mentions this as the search in the link "Jacobzoon Lucifer" and this showed nothing. Maybe it's non-English and offline sources but I wanted comments from other users. I also want to notify the author User:Chrislk02, with whom I'm very familiar, and get his input. SwisterTwister  talk  20:42, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Asia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Piracy-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
 * As the tagger of the article, I also want to notify . SwisterTwister   talk  07:02, 22 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - article is a mess. The reference is a copy of the reference in the Hendrick Lucifer article. There apparently was a Murdu in the East Indies, but the current article links to a town in Iran.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:56, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Probable delete, although The article does have a source. Perhaps one of the article's early editors User:the Man in Question, User:Chrislk02 knows something about the topic, or has that book.  Knowing  that transliteration , especially of names, is highly variable;   that lots of notable people from the Muslim world lack online sources; and that substantial numbers of converts  to Islam and of pirates (not usually intersecting circles) then existed - I am not quite comfortable deleting this until someone looks at that book.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:38, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Found him. with only a little searching.  I'll put the source on the page.18:43, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I googled until I found the bit that I just put on the page.  I think we can eliminate the suspicion that this is a hoax.  There are sources.  Someone willing to track down a physical copy of the book can find more.  As, probably, can someone diligently searching online under variant spellings.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:51, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I know that User:SwisterTwister will remove the hoax tag form the page.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:53, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Final thought. I am a huge fan of WP:BEFORE.  But when dealing with transliterated names, special caution applies.  IMHO it is a kind of WP malpractice to take something to AFD, or to support deletion, on the grounds that the particular transliteration used on the page did not turn up in a search.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:56, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure when Chrislk02 will respond as he's been gone for the past month and it seems The Man in Question is not all that active. Maybe it's not a "hoax" but notability may still be in question, I like the improvement but I'd still like to hear from other users. SwisterTwister   talk  19:20, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Have you tried searching under alternative transliterations, because, frankly, it feels as though you are pushing the envelope pretty hard. Given that WP:BEFORE stipulates that you "Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability,"  what is your justification for continuing with the AFD even though your original justification was: "I suspect this is fictional."?E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:30, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Do you mean that you intend to just leave it up for a month or more, until one of the men who edited it years ago logs back in?E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:32, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * No (and I don't exactly understand why I would leave this here for a month and I never said that)...but is this also notable? SwisterTwister   talk  00:02, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: To allow for the delay requested.  Sandstein  20:28, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete The fact that Abdulla al-Hadj was a pirate who claimed to be born in England and took some loot and was then captured is established. However I do not see anything indicating that this is enough to establish notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 06:47, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Requesting a courtesy pause:  The Rutter book is only available online in snippet views, so I had intended to stop in to my usual library today and take a look at what Rutter has to say about our English haji pirate.   But my library is doing some sort of renovation with the result that when I went to look up the shelf location I discovered that it has been shipped offsite.   I'm writing to request a few days delay in a deletion decision so that I can have them bring the book to me, and I can take a look and see what I find.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:53, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   20:28, 27 July 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * I will assume this isn't a hoax for the time being and hope that E.M. Gregory can confirm his existence, but I am not so convinced by this article. I wasn't able to find any sources in English or Arabic for any of the variations of search terms I tried, not even in the British Library archives (which you'd assume would have records on him). The closest I got was this article which makes mention of a pirate named Rajah who attacked a British trading vessel in 1800, but that is almost certainly grasping for straws since his article states that he was active in the South China Sea. I vote delete if E.M. Gregory is unable to confirm his existence within next week. Elspamo4 (talk) 21:21, 28 July 2015 (UTC) I was mistaken, the link I posted uses rajah as a word, not a name... Elspamo4 (talk) 04:01, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: I'm not sure how a book of "tales" from 1930 will confirm his existence or notability.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:33, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * KeepThank you for your patience. just fyi, Elspamo4, they called it the "South China Sea" back then, geographical names often fall from use.  Got the book today, I am relying on Owen Rutter whose endnotes on this chapter  indicate that he worked from primary sources, from Admiralty and John Company records (which include trials) and on the published and unpublished memoirs and letters of British officials serving in Penang. Rogoziński's account echoes Rutter in less detail.  I can put more of the bloody details (murder) of the Haji Abdullah's capture of the brig Robert Spankie as Rutter cites them from the trial transcript into the article if that seems desirable.  Just flag me.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:14, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment there are so few of us who can deal competently with transliterated names (& in this case 1 part of the name is common to a large percentage of Moslems), that it sometimes is a good idea to bring something here without an extensive search in material one cannot understand.. I've tried  such searchers, and usually was not clear I had found the right person. The advantage of bringing it here is that it may get looked at by those who can help. I have for years strongly advocated WP:BEFORE to the extent of trying to make it policy, and enforced by some automatic mechanism, but only a reasonable effort is required.  DGG ( talk ) 19:43, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Point taken. Transliteration drives me crazy.   I do hope someone stops by who can identify "Rajah of Murdu" and "Murdu", although the port cities of an era can cease to exist.  There is, however, a real problem at AFD with over-reliance on online sources.  Especially with history, many significant people and events who have, for whatever reason, ceased to interest the modern world are only source-able from old books and journals.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:17, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, S warm   ♠  00:03, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep Thanks for verifying, E.M.Gregory. Your information led me to find this source, which should clear any remaining doubt. It recollects the entire event of the pillaging of Robert Spankie on 25 September, 1843 in Murdu. "The vessel was detained some time, and then despatched to Penang, with a letter from the Rajah to the Authorities representing a person named Hajee Abdullah, who was sent on board in chains, as the principal actor in the outrage. Hajee Abdullah, being tried before the Court of Judicature, was found guilty as being accessory to the murder of the Commander and Supercargo of the Robert Spankie [..]". This book also alludes to the piracy off the coast of Murdu, and states that the village was destroyed in 1844 in the 'Battle of Murdu' as a result. I'll assume, for now, that Hadj's other biographical information is accurate as well. (As a note to E.M.Gregory, Murdu is apparently in Sumatra). Elspamo4 (talk) 02:13, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Addendum: As for the question of notability, I think being a captain of a crew is notable in itself. We have at least 70+ articles on French and American pirates alone, some of which have some really questionable credentials and references, yet this is one of the very few articles on a pirate active in this specific region. Though I still can understand the rationale for his non-notability. Perhaps I or someone else will find more sources before a decision is reached. Elspamo4 (talk) 02:41, 5 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Kudos to User:Elspamo4, who makes a good point. Considering the scale of piracy around the Malay peninsula in the 17th, 18th, and 19th century, the lack of coverage is a gaping hole in Wikipedia's coverage of the region/period.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:20, 5 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.