Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Adam Fulton (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. I see a consensus here to Delete this article. If anyone would like to work on it in Draft space, let me know on my Talk page. Liz Read! Talk! 04:45, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Adam Fulton
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

No evident indication of fulfilment of WP:GNG. Refs are apparently largely writings and papers of the subject himself, public and administrative records confirming dates, appointments etc. and mentions in passing, rather than significant coverage of the subject himself in independent sources. Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:12, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:12, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Military, Africa,  and Scotland.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:14, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment So, from what I can piece together, the British Empire had appointed Directors of Veterinary Services in colonial regions whose work was control of the major livestock diseases. Source on the position in Egypt/Sudan. So I have two questions: 1) if it's verified he occupied that position in Sierra Leone and The Gambia, is that a WP:NPOL position (i.e. does being the appointed director over all livestock in a colony meet NPOL)? and 2) is there any WP:RS to WP:VERIFY he held the position? If the answer to either question is no I think we have notability problems. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 20:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It would be a civil service appointment, not a political office, so WP:NPOL would not pertain. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:26, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that being an appointment is enough to rule out NPOL given the colonial context (sadly the guidelines aren't really written to be easily applicable to colonial examples). I think the question is more did they actually wield political power in the colonial governance. But I don't think your wrong on the outcome here. I'm very skeptical that this is the type of position that would give notability. Unless the position was some sort of livestock czar (political term) for the colonies, this seems non-notable. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 21:36, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment I note that there was a previous AFD for an article of this name, then a PROD but it would appear that regarded a different subject. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:40, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * That is odd. The article history has creation in June 2023 and the previous AFD with no consensus is from 2005. Also worth noting the article author has a declared WP:COI with the subject. I'd be okay with a Delete here given the circumstances. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 21:46, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * In case there is some confusion, the previous AFD and PROD should have no bearing on this discussion as they regard a different subject, a different Adam Fulton (an animator). Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:13, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment I found this and this for a start. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 23:44, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The first appears to be user-generated content. The second appears to be an archival survey. Which may indicate notability, but only really tells us there are physical archives that contain primary sources related to this guy and doesn't help fix the WP:V problem the article currently has. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 23:56, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The first source I linked was originally published in the 1994 Spring issue of the Western Front Association journal "Stand To", so it's not user-generated content. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 06:29, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I mean, even if that is true, it's on a website anyone can make an account on and edit the text of the page. That's a user generated content issue. Is there any other copy of that journal article on a different website that is not editable by users? TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 16:08, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The article is here, but one needs to be a member to access. Jahaza (talk) 01:22, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete mainly because of unfixable WP:V issues. None of the citations in the article appear to be verifiable by a reliable source. I did a WP:BEFORE and found nothing. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 00:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for all your comments and considerations.
 * My comments are as follows:
 * Noteworthiness.
 * ·      This wasn’t originally identified as an issue.
 * ·      However, Fulton was responsible for the animal welfare and wellbeing, and therefore indirectly, the livelihoods, economic and societal development for a large part of West Africa for a population of approximately 5-6m individuals at that time.
 * ·      His experimental vaccine use is documented and a foot note is included. The impact of this alone, preventing the unnecessary deaths of thousands of animals is important.
 * References
 * ·      There are multiple verifiable sources pertaining to his war service and civil service appointments. In regards to his west African experience,
 * ·      The Cameron article reproduced in the Border regiment online page has been faithfully copied from its paper version printed in the Western Front journal. A simple remedy is to remove the online reference and keep only the paper article reference.
 * ·      In regards to formatting, refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Glasgow, I know this individual, not only did he write this article himself without any COI declaration, all of his references except one are made to articles behind a pay wall.
 * Gambian Poultry Scheme
 * ·      As I noted, Fulton’s assessment of this disaster could not be made public without impact to his career. Thus, the only references are his notes and conversations.  His comments add an important dimension to the project. I have also referenced Hansard wherein the details are repeated. However, this paragraph could be amended to read, that the scheme occurred during his appointment, leaving the Hansard reference.
 * Summary
 * ·      Fulton’s contribution to African animal welfare is documented footnote 12 – ‘In Ghana, the livestock immunisation “breakthrough came with a virus passed through rabbits. This lapinized strain, developed by A Fulton in Sierra Leone from a virus originally cultured in Egypt, was tried in Ghana in 1950-51, when twenty-five thousand head were inoculated with no deaths”. Patterson, K. David. “The Veterinary Department and the Animal Industry in the Gold Coast, 1909-1955.” The International Journal of African Historical Studies, vol. 13, no. 3, 1980, pp. 476’
 * ·      Fulton’s appointments as Countries’ Director of Veterinary services is documented – footnote 9 Appointments, Colonial Office List 1949, p454>
 * ·      Further confirmation of veterinary service activities can be found in the Cameron article, although copied online and which can be amended, the original article stands.
 * ·      You have thus three sources to confirm his impact.
 * ·      The question remains as to whether or not his position, his responsibilities, and his impact (with the, the at least one cited benefit to animal welfare, footnote 12) makes him noteworthy or not. The answer is clearly yes.
 * ·      The areas where there are fewer citations available ie the Gambian poultry scheme, can be removed. Hughf2 (talk) 02:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * In regards to the general concept veterinary medicine in Africa and impact made, I would also respectfully refer you to the following:
 * Patterson, K. D. (1980). The Veterinary Department and the Animal Industry in the Gold Coast, 1909-1955. The International Journal of African Historical Studies, 13(3), 457–491. https://doi.org/10.2307/218952
 * https://www.jstor.org/stable/218952, Patterson states, ‘Veterinary work was one of the most successful developmental activities during the colonial period. The control of epizootic diseases allowed herds and flocks to increase, providing income for livestock owners and nutritionally vital protein for agricultural and urban populations’.
 * Fulton's contribution generally is recognized and specifically in regards to footnote 12.
 * As I've indicated a revised entry, which could include the above reference, can be made easily. Hughf2 (talk) 03:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * A revised format, it is a rough draft, could read as follows (and which would also include the relevant publicly accessible citations, including Patterson above):

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 21:59, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your consideration and time spent in reviewing this entry Hughf2 (talk) 03:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It is also possible to insert photos of some of the personal documentation - ie the letter of commendation concerning disease control Hughf2 (talk) 05:55, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. Head of the veterinary service in two colonies. Appears to satisfy notability. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:31, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Revised entry submitted that may address concerns raised. Hughf2 (talk) 09:31, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Weak delete - The only relevant WP:SNG appears to be WP:NBIO, of which the "Basic criteria" reduce to WP:GNG. Of the NBIO "Additional criteria", only WP:ANYBIO appears relevant, but I'm not seeing evidence that any of these would be met (and even if one of the additional criteria was met, see WP:BIOSPECIAL for what to do when the basic criteria/GNG is not concurrently met).The extant sourcing does not appear to pass GNG. I don't have full access to Veterinary medicine from the further reading section, but what I'm seeing is not confidence inspiring. The most promising reference is the Reminiscences... text, but the title and the first few paras gives me great concern regarding it's independence from the subject. Absent further sourcing to clearly establish a GNG/NBASIC pass, I can't in good conscience !vote anything but delete. -Ljleppan (talk) 08:22, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks again for constructive comments and assistance.
 * Please note that a second draft for his entry is now in place which is intended to address the issues raised.
 * In regards to noteworthiness, in general terms, Fulton played a vital role in protecting the wellbeing and welfare of livestock, ensuring the stability of the agricultural sector, and securing the food supply for millions of people in West Africa. These achievements, combined with the verification of these claims through independent and credible sources, further substantiate Fulton's noteworthy status in the field. His expertise in West African veterinary issues, promotion to key positions, and groundbreaking contributions in combatting rinderpest exemplify his significant and enduring impact on veterinary medicine.
 * 1. Fulton's career progression, marked by his promotion to significant positions, is a testament to his exceptional abilities and the recognition he received within the veterinary community.
 * o In the Gold Coast/Ghana, Fulton through merit based, progressive promotion moved from Veterinary Officer (VO) in the Northern Territories of the GC/Ghana to Senior Veterinary Officer (SVO) and often deputised as country Director of Veterinary Services (DVS).  These appointments have been confirmed at footnote 7, Fulton was variously appointed as, Veterinary Officer in 1926, Senior Veterinary Officer in 1937 and Director Veterinary Services also in 1937, confirmation is found through this link:  https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Colonial_Veterinary_Service_List/lwciAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Adam+Fulton+MRCVS&pg=PA5&printsec=frontcover
 * o His appointment as the Director of Veterinary Services for Sierra Leone and The Gambia highlights the trust placed in him to lead and oversee critical initiatives related to veterinary services and disease control in these countries. The appointment, ‘DVS, SL & Gam 1948’, is confirmed at:  https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Colonial_Office_List/BHFEDWheazEC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Adam+Fulton+MRCVS&pg=PA454&printsec=frontcover
 * 2. Perhaps his most remarkable contribution was his innovative approach to combatting rinderpest, a highly fatal disease that posed a severe threat to livestock populations. Fulton's pioneering work in this area led to the development of a successful vaccine that effectively countered the devastating impact of rinderpest, saving countless cattle and preserving the livelihoods of communities dependent on these animals. This breakthrough solidifies his legacy as a visionary in the field of veterinary medicine and disease control.
 * o His pioneering vaccine work as Director for Sierra Leone and The Gambia is confirmed at https://www.jstor.org/stable/218952?seq=20 page 476 – JSTOR membership is required to access the relevant section but Patterson’s words are repeated in the footnote. Hughf2 (talk) 05:38, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The fact that the best you can find is footnotes and passing references (which the JSTOR article is, I have access to the full version through work), if anything, seems like confirmation of my !vote. Ljleppan (talk) 05:47, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Ljleppan,
 * Many thanks for your reply.
 * My apologies, my contention is that the attainment of such a high-profile position and the resulting impact on veterinary services in two countries is significant. That, his directorship alone should signify his expertise, leadership capabilities, and lasting influence on veterinary medicine, establishing him as a noteworthy figure in the profession. His appointment is well documented in publicly available official records including his obituary.
 * In regards to his pioneering use of vaccinations, this is one example of his prowess and impact. This is also referenced, at least once with the Patterson article. I have also added the letter of appreciation to Fulton’s entry sent by the then Governor of Sierra Leone - “During this time the Veterinary Services in Sierra Leone have been properly established and a degree of control of animal disease never before existing has been developed on sound lines. The speedy and successful way in which two serious outbreaks of rinderpest were dealt with in 1950 and 1951 gave ample proof of the effective organisation built up under your directions and in the face of difficulties”.
 * As you will read, his service in the First World War was also of note, but, as I’ve indicated the main thrust of why he should be included is because he attained country level directorship.
 * In regards to footnotes, I am referring to my own footnotes created for his wiki entry. I am not citing footnotes in other work.  Hughf2 (talk) 02:02, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: Message left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sierra Leone informing them of this AfD -- A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 03:15, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete The heavy use of primary sources makes this original research. For example, the first three are archival records, and thus definitely OR. Then we have various lists and records, including a Wiki (Wiki's are informal and not reliable sources) that copies a War Diary from an archival source. I removed one irrelevant source but I see that there are others that do not support the content. And a whole section on his "personal life" is unreferenced. This is definitely not the place for this information, and I'm glad that the related Wiki that can carry his info exists. Lamona (talk) 03:50, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Lamona,
 * Thank you for review. References now applied to section, 'Personal Life'. Also, both references to the respective battalion war diaries are now linked to the official and original source held with the National Archives - the footnote link to Wiki now removed, but retained in the 'further reading' section.    Hughf2 (talk) 04:41, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * [User:Hughf2|Hughf2]], I removed the notice that the section was unreferenced. Unfortunately that does not change the fact that most of the content here is original research based on primary sources. If you haven't done so, please read through WP:OR. For an article to pass must here you need secondary sources, as defined in that page. Lamona (talk) 15:20, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Lamona, your guidance appreciated Hughf2 (talk) 02:07, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Further revisions to entry made to increase neutrality.   Hughf2 (talk) 05:42, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting as the article has undergone a great deal of changes in the two weeks since it was nominated. Maybe a fresh look is called for. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:53, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 'New Entry' - Hello to everyone. Thank you for the very valuable insights and guidance to date. I have thoroughly revised the entry and kindly request your time and consideration to re-review it. Taking your comments into consideration, I have made significant improvements and updates, ensuring its accuracy and adherence to Wikipedia's standards - I hope. Thank you again for your support. Hughf2 (talk) 11:06, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi. There is still the problem of secondary sources. I see that the Journal of African Historical Studies mentions his work, and that is grand but is not enough for notability. The obituary would help if it is more than a paragraph or two, so if you have a copy of that it would be great to show it to us. I have tried to find the book you reference (From Mons to Messines and beyond) but it isn't searchable. We need to find substantial (not just naming or mentions) secondary sources about this person. Lamona (talk) 21:14, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Lamona, I uploaded copies of 'From Mons..' and the obituary to flicker https://flic.kr/ps/3ZM81t The obituary is written in the Courier which may not be a UK national newspaper but is a Scottish country wide newspaper   Hughf2 (talk) 04:26, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comment just noting for the benefit of the closer that I've found the changes and discussions since my !vote unpersuasive, and can confirm the The International Journal of African Historical Studies is indeed a passing mention. -Ljleppan (talk) 06:21, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm afraid the reworking of the article has not allayed my original concerns regarding notability. Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:42, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * CommentI think then that the issue for consideration is simply this, does his appointment as countries director, holding executive responsibility for policy development and implementation in matters concerning the welfare and well-being of livestock (and indirectly impacting on the respective populations) make him noteworthy or not? In common with Necrothesp, I think that some individuals, due to the level of appointment attained, demonstrate inherent notability.  My contention for Fulton’s noteworthiness primarily, is that he was promoted on merit to the highest executive veterinary appointment, that is country director for two countries - head of an nation wide organisation at a national level, (I draw to your attention the entry for Charles Heddle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Heddle for comparison). Of secondary importance was the acknowledgement by Patterson for Fulton's work with the rinderpest vaccine, and by the Colonial leadership of Fulton's work generally including disease control during his appointment.   The other details, including his war service, is provided to give some depth and ‘colour’ for the individual.    Thank you again for the valuable time you have spent on reviewing this entry — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hughf2 (talk • contribs)
 * I'd agree, there is a similar lack of notability demonstrated in the Heddle article. (Possibly best resolved by a redirect to Heddle's Farm but that is a separate matter.) Mutt Lunker (talk) 08:44, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.