Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Admiral (gambling) (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Novomatic. RL0919 (talk) 23:24, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Admiral (gambling)
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Company doesn't seem to meet WP:NCORP - lacks in-depth coverage in reliable sources. The previous AFD was affected by sockpuppets, so I think it is worth reconsidering this article. MrsSnoozyTurtle 23:06, 25 November 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:45, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Companies and United Kingdom. Shellwood (talk) 23:56, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment. Admiral is a brand, not a company, so the correct standard to apply is WP:GNG. Cielquiparle (talk) 09:09, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Given that WP:NCORP states it applies to "organization (commercial or otherwise), or any of its products and services", I suggest it would apply to this article. Regards, MrsSnoozyTurtle 23:24, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Notability arguments aside, this is more like a BLP where the LP probably really doesn't want to have a WP article. Cielquiparle (talk) 23:36, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge to Novomatic. Reviewing the company's history, they have used the Admiral brand from the very beginning, for a range of businesses in many countries, including slot machines, casinos & slot parlors, hotels, online gaming & betting. Seems to me that the story of Admiral the brand is entwined and inseparable from the story of Novomatic the company. Toohool (talk) 19:26, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @Toohool: Thanks for the research. Makes sense now why they claim to have 1,500 Admiral outlets worldwide (including 60 casinos), in addition to the 233 adult gaming centres (AGCs) in the UK.
 * Incidentally, Novomatic's "Admiral Casino" brand probably has nothing to do with the historic "Admiral Casino" in the US, which turns out to have a large volume of secondary coverage that could help with expanding a current Wikipedia article called SS Admiral (1907). So if the content is merged from Admiral (gambling) to Novomatic, I would propose:
 * Create hat notes to distinguish between Admiral, the gambling venues owned by Novomatic, versus the historical US casino operating on the SS Admiral, on the pages for Novomatic and SS Admiral (1907), respectively
 * That said, I think we still need to discuss whether there is justification to reframe this content (focusing on the UK gambling operations), thereby making it officially about one of the UK subsidiaries (and thus squarely in WP:NCORP territory), and rename it to either:
 * Luxury Leisure
 * Luxury Leisure Talarius
 * Greentube Alderney
 * One other side note is that I believe the page Admiral (gambling) was originally created with an emphasis on the online gambling site called AdmiralCasino.co.uk. A lot of that was based on media coverage that originated from company and partner press releases; it may have satisfied the notability guidelines at the time the article was created, but doesn't now. So IMO, it doesn't make sense to have an article dedicated to the online UK casino only. Cielquiparle (talk) 11:24, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
 * In general, I think it makes sense for a subsidiary to be covered as a section of the parent company's article, and to be spun out only if there's so much noteworthy information to cover that it overshadows the rest of the article, or if there's a lot of info that's not directly relevant to the article (such as the history of the subsidiary before it was acquired).
 * So in this case I would envision the Novomatic article as having a section about Greentube, which is Novomatic's online division, and includes the Admiral online casino in the UK, as well as online casinos under other brands and in different countries. And a section about their casinos/gaming centers, with a subsection about the UK, which would cover the brick-and-mortar Admiral gaming centers, including the history of the Luxury Leisure and Talurius acquisitions.
 * These could be spun out as separate articles on Luxury Leisure and Greentube if the content warrants it in the future. (There's already Quicksilver (company), which can cover the history of Talurius.) But I doubt there would be that much content to add. A lot of the current content in the Admiral article is excessive detail that should really be trimmed, like the parts about applications for individual locations (though the effort to add sources to the article to establish notability is appreciated).
 * As for the SS Admiral, I do think that Admiral Casino should be a redirect to Novomatic, and a hatnote could be warranted for President Casino Laclede's Landing (the article specifically about the boat's time as a casino). Toohool (talk) 03:36, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Merge to Novomatic as per the above logic. I also agree a redirect from Admiral Casino also makes sense.  HighKing++ 12:43, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge to Novomatic makes sense per the helpful context from above. Please ping me if help is needed with the merge, as I think it's just a minor subset of information that needs to be merged. In searching for additional sources, the "strongest" sources for Luxury Leisure were the articles on the various controversies surrounding their planning applications, which is interesting, but isn't really sufficient on its own; we would still need additional coverage about the company itself to satisfy WP:NCORP. There actually was a lot more coverage than I expected about Greentube Alderney, but once you sort through all the press release-driven "stuff", there isn't that much left. I appreciate 's comment in the last AfD discussion that it seems important to preserve information about gambling companies, which are notoriously opaque, but I think we might be able to achieve that by (slightly) expanding the information about Admiral Casino UK on the page for Novomatic. Cielquiparle (talk) 12:13, 7 December 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.