Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Adriaan Luteijn


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Stifle (talk) 10:21, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Adriaan Luteijn

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Poorly sourced, highly promotional article about a choreographer. Submitted *after* massive copyright violation removal by an account that appears to be his current employer. Does not appear to meet notability requirements. Risker (talk) 05:47, 23 April 2023 (UTC) Expanding: He is one of 20 choreographers at Introdans Arnhem. Not even the artistic director of that organization (Roel Voorintholt) has an article in either the English or the Dutch wikipedias. (Luteijn's article on Nederlands Wikipedia appears to be the same massive copyright violation as was found here, and is up for deletion.) Risker (talk) 06:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:29, 30 April 2023 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗  plicit  11:50, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Dance-related deletion discussions. Risker (talk) 05:47, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Ignoring the fact of the article being up for deletion on the Dutch wiki, at best the subject could be described as on the fringe, therefore fails WP:GNG in my opinion. Equine-man (talk) 06:25, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Netherlands-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 06:55, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. I started this page in May 2012 as a spin-off from an article on Introdans. Since then it has suffered badly from link rot and self promotion. It could use a rewrite, as could the Dutch version. However, a quick web search shows that the subject is a notable choreographer. Some possible sources for a rewrite: Dutch Culture, Theaterkrant, Alchetron, De Gelderlander, Rambert School of Ballet and Contemporary Dance, ArtEZ Studium Generale, Theater Encyclopedie, Dans Magazine, Introdans. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete coverage is trivial, rest of the sources found are about as long as that one. Delete for lack of extensive sourcing. Not at GNG.Oaktree b (talk) 15:45, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Aymatth's sources indicate he's notable, the article just needs improvement.♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:18, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - references does indicate notability, indeed. Per WP:GNG. Sure needs improvements but AfD is no clean up service.BabbaQ (talk) 15:49, 8 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment – Pinging those who !voted keep. As you can see, I have created a source assessment table examining the links provided by Aymatth2. I thank him for his effort; however, none pass GNG. Other sources online also don't pass GNG from my observations. I feel like these unreliable, passing mentions and non-independent sources incorrectly make him appear as though he is notable. However, I am not able to find any source online indicating this. Also, none of the sources cited in the article pass GNG.  Nythar  (💬-🍀) 04:57, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The "source assessment table" is inaccurate and misleading. For example, dans magazine is clearly a reliable independent source that covers the subject in some depth. The fact that it gives a link to the subject's website is irrelevant. Theaterkrant is also reliable and independent. The list of articles tagged to the subject includes, for example. this one discussing in some depth his work with people with disabilities. The news item on him becoming a knight in the Order of Orange-Nassau is relevant, as is the long list of his performances given by Theater Encyclopedie. These sources come from a quick web search, from the first two or three pages, enough to show that the subject is a well-known choreographer. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:22, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The table is neither inaccurate nor misleading. I'll address your points here:
 * 1. The fact that any website links to someone's webpage indicates it possibly used that as a source. Perhaps they forgot to ask him something during the interview and found it on his webpage instead. I'd also like to know why a link to his website yields spam. (What is "Dans Magazine" anyway? Why should we consider it to be reliable?)
 * 2. This theaterkrant article focuses only on his charity work. That does not demonstrate WP:SIGCOV; WP:ROUTINE at best. Why is the bar so low here?
 * 3. This article on him receiving an award also fails WP:SIGCOV. At barely a paragraph in length, it falls under WP:ROUTINE and can't be used to determine notability.
 * 4. The Theater Encyclopedia does not cite its sources and contains no biographical content; instead, it contains a list of his works, which it probably aggregated from one of the other websites linked at the top. This cannot be used as a reliable, secondary source. If that were the case, I could create a website and my website would instantly be considered reliable.
 * — Nythar (💬-🍀) 19:40, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Dans magazine is a reputable online magazine published by Virtumedia. Theaterkrant is a website and trade magazine for the Dutch performing arts published by the Foundation for the Promotion of Performing Arts in the Netherlands (Stichting BPN). Both are reliable independent sources, and both have published various in-depth articles about Adriaan Luteijn's life and works. These two sources alone are enough to show notability. Together with details from sources like De Gelderlander and Theater Encyclopedia (which reproduces the Production database from the University of Amsterdam's Theater Collection) there is enough material for an extensive and well-sourced article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aymatth2 (talk • contribs) 15:01, 10 May 2023 (UTC)


 * delete Because Poorly sourced Kitrsjlhf (talk) 01:41, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per my reasoning above. The source assessment table isn't only there to determine the reliability of the sources; its purpose is to determine whether the subject passes the GNG, and in this case he does not. Every source turning up online is either too short, WP:ROUTINE, barely reliable, lacks SIGCOV, or isn't secondary. I do not believe these are enough to prove notability. An excess of sources does not result in notability, as has been demonstrated in the past. Nythar  (💬-🍀) 08:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The central issue is whether we consider Dans magazine and Theater Krant to be reliable and independent. They seem to be the two main specialty journals covering the Netherlands dance scene, and both have published biographies of the subject and articles on his activities and works. If they are reliable and independent, the subject is clearly notable. Journals like this depend on their reputation for interesting, relevant and accurate articles . If they are seen as biased or sloppy in their reporting, readers will turn away and they will be forced out of business. For this reason, they tend to stick to facts that can easily be verified, and make it clear when they are quoting anyone who may be biased. I see no evidence that either magazine is in any way linked to the subject, or that any of the information is inaccurate. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:34, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia articles citing these magazines include The National Ballet Academy of Amsterdam, Jiří Kylián, Igone de Jongh, Gayatri Patel Bahl, Stichting De Stilte, Halina Reijn, Beschuit met muisjes (play), Sahand Sahebdivani, Anne (play), Arts Union (Netherlands), Jefta van Dinther, Arco Renz, Olga Peretyatko, Floris Visser, Henri van Zanten, Five Easy Pieces (Milo Rau), Freek de Jonge, Maya Arad Yasur, Emmanuel Ohene Boafo, Club Guy & Roni, Kurt Vandendriessche, Lucas van Lierop, Fumiyo Ikeda, Ula Sickle, Alexandra Flood. Let's hope they are reliable. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:24, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @Aymatth2, my only concern with the Theater Krant articles is that they lack SIGCOV. For instance, the article you linked to, about his charitable contributions, cannot alone indicate that he passes the GNG because it lacks "significant coverage". Its focus is on Luteijn's charitable contributions and it barely touches on his actual career, or his life, or something that would indicate he is notable. It also appears to be a ROUTINE article published just for the sake of publishing something. This list of the other Theater Krant articles does not yield a single article where he is discussed in detail. Moving on, one of my concerns with the Dans Magazine article is that the website that links to "Luteijn" at the start of the article, contains pornographic spam for some odd reason. I'm also not too satisfied with the fact that a single article that is quite short and that links to a spam website is the only article left from which we are supposed to determine notability. What I gather from these sources is that he is a non-notable choreographer; even if the Dans Magazine article doesn't link to that spam website, the article is still too short and contains too little information that would indicate he is notable. This is why we don't have an article for every one of these people who have been featured in minor magazines and websites. Nythar  (💬-🍀) 15:05, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Dans magazine gives a 6-paragraph bio of Luteijn, links to a 30-minute video about his recent work by the public TV channel NPO 2 Extra, and links to 13 articles that mention him. Some are passing mentions, and some go into more detail. The bio and video are in depth coverage from two reliable independent sources, and the other articles are useful. (The link to the spam site will be because Luteijn or a friend started and then abandoned an adriaanluteijn.com site. Some spammers revive dead urls like these, which draw traffic from people searching for the name.) The 9-paragraph article in Theaterkrant is in-depth coverage of the work Luteijn has done with disabled people, work for which he was made a knight of the Order of Orange-Nassau. In-depth coverage of the artist's work demonstrates notability of the artist. Again, Theaterkrant lists 10 articles that mention him, providing useful detail for an article. The 4-paragraph bio from the Rambert School of Ballet and Contemporary Dance would count as in-depth coverage from a fourth reliable independent source. And then there are many news items, such as this list from de Volkskrant that give useful snippets for an article. The subject is clearly notable, with plenty of well-sourced material available for an article. Aymatth2 (talk) 18:17, 13 May 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.