Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/African Americans (ethnicity)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete as a WP:POVFORK. Appropriately-sourced content about the relevant viewpoints should be incorporated (in due proportion) into existing articles. RL0919 (talk) 21:24, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

African Americans (ethnicity)

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Blatant WP:POVFORK of African Americans. Contested redirect. – bradv 🍁  16:40, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This is absolutely not a POV fork. There are plenty of articles and journals which discuss the African American ethnicity at length as a specific lineage to those who are descendants of slavery. There is no disputing that African Americans are a specific ethnic group that should have their own page dedicated to them, which currently does not exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taharka155 (talk • contribs) 16:43, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I would aso appreciate if this Bradv individual would explain what makes this page a POV fork and dispute the fact that African Americans are a specific ethnic group beyond being a racial category. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taharka155 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 18 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 16:55, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 16:55, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Taharka155 started this article in reaction to this discussion at African Americans. Their idea is that Barack Obama and Kamala Harris cannot be called "African Americans", which is clearly against mainstream. The definition of the new article is that African Americans are an ethnic group consisting of descendants of people who were brought to the United States as chattel slaves during the Atlantic slave trade, based on a misrepresentation of this source. If the word "largely" from the source were accepted into the definition, the result would be nearly identical with what African Americans already says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rsk6400 (talk • contribs) 19:33, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * ComentThis is simply not true. The article African Americans makes the claim that anyone of the black racial group is classified as African American. The article that I created is specifically for those who are descendants of chattel slaves in the United States, which are a genetically, culturally, and historically distinct ethnic group from Caribbean, African, and Afro-Latino immigrants in the United States. The Britannica article which I used as a source also notes this distinction clearly. I have stated previously that Nigerian Americans, Jamaican Americans, Kenyan Americans, Ghanaian Americans, Haitian Americans, and every other Black immigrant ethnic group has a specific Wikipedia page for their people, and yet there is not one for African American descendants of slaves. 95% of Black immigrants do not identify with the term African American, as is cited in the page. I do not see the issue here, as the author of the African Americans page has clearly stated that content contained within that page is pertaining simply to race and not ethnicity. --Taharka155 (talk) 12:52, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete Ethnicity can not be determined by descent. This a POV attempt to claim that "pureblooded" African Americans have to have slaves as ancestors. As with any claim about "purity of blood", this is only a racist's pipe dream. Dimadick (talk) 23:30, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * ComentAt no point in my article is anything about blood purity mentioned. Literally in the genetics page it shows the genetic diversity of African Americans with European and Native American heritage. I don't know why this statement about being a pipe dream is not considered an insult. Also I will expect you all to also be marking Nigerian American and all other immigrant ethnic pages for deletion as well. If not I will nominate it for deletion --Taharka155 (talk) 12:53, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Coment Also addressing your claim that ethnicity cannot be determined by ancestry, this is from the Oxford's definition and the official wikipedia page on ethnic groups: "An ethnic group or ethnicity is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include common sets of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area". The claim that ethnicity is not determined by descent is purely opinionated and not based on reality. --Taharka155 (talk) 12:53, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Merge to the main African Americans article, it's basically once and the same. Could be a brief mention in a genetics section in the other article. Oaktree b (talk) 00:47, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge, I agree with Oaktree b and support merging with the African American article  Safyrr  22:10, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep Article is relevant and is properly documented with citations. Louie (talk) 15:33, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep The Article is not a fork of African Americans. That article clearly states in the introductory statements that it is a category based upon race, and includes a multitude of ethnic groups. African Americans (ethnicity) is properly cited, and gives ample information of what distinguishes it from the that article. There is a clear distinction between ethnic African Americans and for example Kenyan Americans, or Jamaican Americans, both of whom have pages dedicated to them that exclude African Americans who descend from enslaved people. I have a number of cited genetic, historical, cultural, and socioeconomic differences that clearly distinguish these groups from those African Americans who descend from slaves brought to the United States, which clearly identify them as a separate ethnic group, something that the article African Americans simply does not do. Information pertaining to African American slave descendants such as their history and culture is vast and it deserves its own separate article. --Taharka155 (talk) 20:05, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment The article is about an ethnicity called "African Americans" which excludes each and every person not descended from enslaved Americans. None of the given sources supports the existence of such a group. --Rsk6400 (talk) 08:03, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment The sources you provided when you described African Americans as an ethnic group, do not make any mention of ethnicity, only race. "The Black racial category includes people who marked the “Black, African Am., or Negro” checkbox. It also includes respondents who reported entries such as African American; Sub-Saharan African entries, such as Kenyan and Nigerian; and Afro-Caribbean entries, such as Haitian and Jamaican." This clearly denotes several ethnicities, with African American being specifically listed apart from Haitian Americans, Jamaican Americans, etc. --Taharka155 (talk) 12:57, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - The ethnicity which I've provided many citations for as being distinct genetically, culturally, historically and in socioeconomics from other Black immigrant ethnicities doesn't exist..... This is ethnocidal language that erases an ethnicity and contrary to everything cited within the article and the works of many notable historians and anthropologists.
 * Delete/Merge Obvious POVFORK, the African Americans article begins African Americans are an ethnic group consisting of Americans with partial or total ancestry from any of the Black racial groups of Africa. Emphasis mine. Hemiauchenia (talk) 06:10, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment No ethnicity is based entirely upon race. The page for African Americans is mislabeled and the source provided does not mention it as an ethnicity but a racial category. "The Black racial category includes people who marked the "Black, African Am., or Negro" checkbox. It also includes respondents who reported entries such as African American; Sub-Saharan African entries, such as Kenyan and Nigerian; and Afro-Caribbean entries, such as Haitian and Jamaican."https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-06.pdf" I have since edited the page to reflect that myself --Taharka155 (talk) 12:45, 22 December 2021 (UTC)contribs) 12:41, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * In the US, a distinction between "race" and "ethnicity" with regards to African Americans is not clearly drawn. There is no justification for two separate articles. As for your claims regarding Americans who are recent African migrants, the African American article notes: The term African American generally denotes descendants of enslaved Africans who are from the United States,while some Black immigrants or their children may also come to identify as African-American and According to U.S. Census Bureau data, African immigrants generally do not self-identify as African American. The overwhelming majority of African immigrants identify instead with their own respective ethnicities (~95%). Immigrants from some Caribbean, Central American, and South American nations and their descendants may or may not also self-identify with the term. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:43, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Regardless of what the African Americans article makes note of, the opening statement and its citations clearly do make a distinction, as do a large number of citations within the article for African Americans (ethnicity). The African Americans article make absolutely no clear separation between the various ethnic groups that the US Census defines as racially African Americans. I have provided citations which demonstrate that African Americans (descendants of slaves) are genetically, culturally, and historically distinct from Africans and Caribbeans, as well as having vastly different socioeconomic issues. If this does not warrant a separate article, then there are a large number of articles that also need to be deleted including Kenyan American, Nigerian American, Jamaican American, Haitian American, etc. There's no reason for any of those groups to have ethnic articles when the largest and oldest black ethnicity in the United States, descendants of Americans slaves who have a unique history, culture, genetic profile, and socioeconomic circumstances do not have an article. Even when so many anthropologists and historians have distinguished them as an ethnic group. Even the quotation from the Census provided above distinguishes African Americans as a separate ethnic group.--Taharka155 (talk) 20:35, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete This is an essentialist WP:POVFORK of African Americans under wrong premises that The article African Americans makes the claim that anyone of the black racial group is classified as African American. Whereas the lede of African Americans actually says that ...some Black immigrants or their children may also come to identify as African-American (emphasis added). Ethnic groups, like all social groups, are fluid to varying extent. A page that is created with the sole to intent to present a monolithic, essentialist POV of a social group identity has no place in WP. –Austronesier (talk) 21:06, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * comment This is very opening statement of the African Americans article "African Americans (also referred to as Black Americans and formerly, Afro-Americans) is an ethnic group consisting of Americans with partial or total ancestry from any of the Black racial groups of Africa". I'm not paraphrasing. People who are Kenyan Americans and Jamaican Americans are included in the article, and it includes the history of voluntary immigration from Africa in recent decades. As I've previously stated, there are dozens of wikipedia articles that distinguish other Black American ethnic groups such as Ethiopian Americans that exclude African American descendants of slaves, and yet there is not a single wikipedia page dedicated to that group. The citation provided from the Census bureau even makes the distinction between these groups. There's no reason why wikipedia should not have an article dedicated to this ethnicity, other than a very blatant and systematic attempt to erase their unique culture and history in America. Claims that is has no place on Wikipedia is proven wrong by the great many articles for Black ethnicities that exclude this ethnicity.--Taharka155 (talk) 22:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * You're not paraphrasing, but you're omitting the following sentences, and by doing so you misrepresent what the article actually is about. It's a straw argument. And the complete denial of the possibility that people with different ancestry can assimilate into and be accepted by the mainstream of the African American community as one of theirs is an insular view. Spell out that "People who are Kenyan Americans" refers to Barack Obama, who you don't consider to African American only because of his "bloodline". –Austronesier (talk) 09:08, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The same way that African American slave descendants are excluded from being labeled Kenyan American and are featured no where in the Kenyan Americans article, yet they can be in the article for African Americans… No one can “assimilate” into the Kenyan American community, but the African American community is just some open door for anyone with Black skin according to people who aren’t even African American. There is some very clear bias going on here against people who are slave descendants, along with false ideas being spread by people who are not African American and learn about Black people in some book.Taharka155 (talk) 13:10, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete .... complete misunderstanding of the concept. READ. Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 00:23, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete as POV fork. -- Euryalus (talk) 02:13, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Note that American Descendants of Slavery is an existing article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:20, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * that article is of a political organization, not an ethnicity.Taharka155 (talk) 13:05, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Per that article, not only: "is a term referring to descendants of enslaved Africans in the area that would become the United States (from its colonial period onward), and to the political movement". Expanding that article on the "No American slavery ancestry, not AA" POV is a possibility. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:31, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * A term used by a small group online and an actual legally recognized ethnicity are two completely different things.--Taharka155 (talk) 14:27, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * But the POV of that very group is vital to understand what is going on here in this discussion, isn't it? –Austronesier (talk) 15:15, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * There is also the African_Americans section to work with. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:13, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Some media for context: The Wikipedia War That Shows How Ugly This Election Will Be Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:29, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per Austronesier and others. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:36, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.