Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep (NAC). There is clear consensus here to keep this article. The editors arguing for deletion have stated that the accuracy of the information is in dispute; however, this is an argument to include the debate in the article, and does not negate notability. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:14, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov

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Questioned as a hoax, and deleted on two other Wikipedia sites for that reason due to contradicting sources. Let's get the ball rolling on whether the same should happen here. Mdann52 (talk) 15:14, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong keep The article itself should not have had the hoax template - there are plenty of sources going back years on this guy. There's even a museum dedicated to him in Azerbaijan. The reason for the hoax tag is because some (mainly from a certain neighboring country that hates AZE) insist the story about his heroics is all lies and Soviet and Azeri propaganda. That's not the same as WP:HOAX. —Мандичка YO 😜 16:01, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete, most of the sources are made up in the sense that they contain false information. Please note that for whatever reason this subject became one more example of animosity between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and we should expect here a lot of Armenian users voting delete and a lot of Azeri users voting delete (I am neither, and I ab absolutely neutral in Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict).--Ymblanter (talk) 16:17, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * That's not how it works - it has not been proven they contain false information, and even so it is not our job to investigate facts. If reliable sources have reported his life questionable or likely propaganda, then put in the article! A subject is notable if it has been the subject of persistent coverage in reliable sources, NOT "but only if it's been proven the information reported is true." There are plenty of articles about hoaxes and subjects of propaganda - his life possibly being faked may in fact make him more notable, especially because of the additional recent coverage about the deleted WP article.  —Мандичка YO 😜 16:37, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I am not sure whether you got it - currently most of the information in the article is false. As a reputable website, we can not afford having false information. And since, exactly, we can not investigate the case ourselves, it is very difficult to separate a small number of correct facts from a large number of things which were made up at various periods of time. To put it differently, almost none of the sources in the article are reliable, and some contradict to the others. This is why I voted delete.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:45, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * And when has it been reported in reliable sources most of the info is false? We report what the reliable sources say. If something is suspect, this is why we have tags such as "dubious," "better source needed" etc. This is not a BLP - we do not delete the article out of fear of damaging Wikipedia's credibility. The Wiki campaigners who are trying to prove his story is a hoax (along with those trying to prove it's all true) are NOT reliable sources. We are here to determine notability, which the subject easily meets. In a magazine issued just this month, his museum is referred to as "one of the great places of Sheki." - page 80-81) —Мандичка YO 😜 17:13, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * These sources are not reliable. They have never been reliable. RT (TV network) is way more reliable in its coverage of Russian-Ukrainian conflict that these sources.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:18, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Why exactly are they not reliable? The article has been slashed to a stub but there are an extraordinary amount of sources talking about him. Here's yet another article from 2012 and one from 2014 from lent.az and vesti.az, which is owned by APA Holding. Unlike RT, it is not a state-funded company. Is it your position that everything the Azerbaijani media says is lies? He is mentioned in books and magazines going back to the 1960s, and Soviet books and newspapers have never, to the best of my knowledge, been blacklisted as not RS. They are frequently cited even by historians today. Here is Jabrayilov in a book from the 1970s by Garash Matadov - who as I said, is cited by historians today. Should I contact Dr. Alstadt and break the news that Matadov, who she cited at least a dozen times, is not a reliable source on Azerbaijani history? Is it possible Jabrayilov's story has been greatly exaggerated or fabricated into a national myth (ie  Vasily Zaytsev and his supposed rival, Erwin König)? Absolutely. Do we have sources saying such? No.   —Мандичка YO 😜 18:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Here, many users argue that RT is a reliable source because it is a reputable TV channel. Similarly, Azerbaijan is a totalitarian state. Whatever the government says (and earlier it was the communist party) gets published. Therefore whateer these sources say about Azerbaijan (and Armenia) is a RS on opinions of Azerbaijani government, but must be double-checked about anything else. We have seen that it badly failed the check.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:31, 10 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete. Russian and French Wikipedias removed Jabrayilov's articles as a fake hero: Russian the accumulated amount of contradicting information exceeded the limit allowing the contributors to write an encyclopedic article in accord with Wikipedia rules to reference respected sources not contradicting to each other, French Le manque de sources et des incohérences sont mises en évidence. Divot (talk) 17:16, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Russian/French Wikipedia's standard of notability and deletion arguments are not the same as English Wikipedia. That there were articles about the deletion of his articles even attests to his notability. —Мандичка YO 😜 18:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep. Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov is really notable person as a participant of Resistance. There is a lot of published reliable sources claiming that. There is several paragraphs about him in the book about participation of Azerbaijan in World War II of Garash Madatov, there is an article about Jabrayilov in Azerbaijan Soviet Encyclopedia. And nothing which can proof that he is hoax. Only original research of some Wikipedia users. I visited house-museum of Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov in Shaki, had a discussion with the director of the museum, Javanshir Jabrayilov, who is the son of Ahmadiyya, made photos of awards, documents, original photos from France and letters to him. Also Javanshir Jabrayilov gave me all scans of the documents and photographs of Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov. Yes, there are some unclear moments in the biography of Jabrayilov. But it doesn't mean that all biography of Jabrayilov is "Soviet-era hoax". It is normal that there are many unclear moments in the events of World War II. But during the discussion on Russian Wikipedia everybody confirmed that Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov really took part in Resistance. In 1970s he visited France, we can see how really participants of Resistance (Rene Chambar, Louis Lasbareilles etc.) greet him. We can see how they visited memorial for Soviet victims. This visit was also documented in French "Sud Ouest" newspaper, where we can also see a photo of Jabrayilov. We cannot ignore these facts. We also cannot ignore the fact of the presence of French awards of Jabrayilov in his house-museum (Croix de Guerre, Croix des services militaires volontaires, Insignia for the Military Wounded, Croix du combattant etc.). Médaille militaire we can see only in the historical photos, which Jabrayilov brought from France (as his son said to me this medal was taken from him in Moscow in 1966, when Jabrayilov was invited to greet Charles de Gaulle). So, according to the rules of Wikipedia Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov is really notable as a participant of Resistance to have an article about him in Wikipedia. --Interfase (talk) 19:09, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. Also, a new biographical book about him is due to be published. Many claims to the contrary are based on unpublished material or contain original research, particularly since there are different French spellings of his name. Brandmeistertalk  21:33, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep The subject's notability is clear per EN WP's guidelines. He passes WP:GNG no doubt.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:36, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * keep, thoroughly cleanup. Since the shit hit the fan, just wait and see what mainstream write. Staszek Lem (talk) 03:34, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment If some consider this story to be a hoax, presumably there would be sources to back that up. Some relevant sources are listed, but under a section about the removal of the article from the French and Russian WPs. That should really be a section about alternate theories, doubts, etc. LaMona (talk) 16:50, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not actually a hoax, as he did exist which is confirmed by multiple sources. It's just some unclear moments and inconsistencies in his biography that could be described, the deletion is not the solution. The deletion in Russian WP occurred despite consensus to keep the article with possible rewriting. Brandmeistertalk  18:21, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * What I meant was the fact that some people consider it a hoax can be added to the article, not that his story is a hoax. Any controversy of this kind belongs in the article if it has been covered in reliable sources, as is an account of the inconsistencies in the story. LaMona (talk) 23:57, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Having participated in the Russian WP discussion, I can say that all allegations there are in fact based on original research and synthesis, with no RS to back them up. Brandmeistertalk  10:56, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:05, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:05, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:05, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Please discuss sources in detail including why they are or are not hoaxes Spartaz Humbug! 22:07, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep As much appears to have been written about it. Even if it is considered a "story", it definitely is a notable one, so it should be attributed as such by reliable sources saying that.  Mar4d  ( talk ) 02:47, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep This needs a rewrite, however, that doesn't make it a hoax. And saying that the Russian WP deleted it for that reason is misleading here. --MurderByDeadcopy"bang!" 17:13, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Why is it misleading to say it was deleted in Russian and French Wikipedias as a hoax?--Ymblanter (talk) 17:26, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep sources prove he is real person and really fought with French ressistance. Cathry (talk) 19:45, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. Existense of article based on such deceitful sources in the English Wikipedia is its shame. Кадош (talk) 18:19, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete There is too much debate on the accuracy of the sources for the article to stand.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:56, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 22:07, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
 * With a section such as "Deletion from Russian and French Wikipedias" included, can be kept. --ssr (talk) 14:18, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. The person was real, and the sources provided during the discussion at the Russian wiki prove that he fought in the French Resistance. If his actual deeds were exaggerated by the Soviet propaganda, it does not make the person unnotable. But we need reliable sources on the alleged exaggeration by the Soviet propaganda. Grand  master  18:59, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia investigation has generated a number of mass media sources in Russian. --ssr (talk) 08:41, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. clpo13(talk) 17:38, 29 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.