Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ahmed Ibrahim Artan (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. No more comments after two relistings. Pretty clear kicking the can down the road seven more days won't do any good. Courcelles (talk) 01:35, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Ahmed Ibrahim Artan
AfDs for this article: 
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This page was previously created as Ahmed Haaji Ibrahim Artan Beeldaaje and was nominated in a previous AfD discussion. (As of this writing it does not show up in the "AfDs for this article" box.) It was moved to its current page name during the earlier AfD. The result of the AfD discussion was delete. Article was twice re-created and speedily deleted (WP:G4). This new version does not improve much upon the original, but it differs enough that I brought it here instead of using CSD again. There are a few more sentences in the body, but it still faces the original issue of citing references that are in the Somali language and cannot be verified (in English). Of these sources, one does not appear to be a news article, nor anything else that would serve as a reliable source (in any language), and was apparently written by the subject himself (link). The article cites one English language source (link), to support the assertion that Ibrahim Artan Ismail is the subject's father. However, the source only mentions Ibrahim Artan Ismail's political role, nothing about any familial relationship. I deleted another English source (link) that ostensibly corroborated the subject's clan affiliation; however the source didn't mention anything about that and I removed the sentence in question. That source did quote the subject as a "Writer and Political Figure" but I am not sure about the notability of the source itself and it would appear to be WP:SPS. Delete. Gyrofrog (talk) 16:54, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * P.S. All of the Somali-language sources appear to have been written by the subject himself. They might be allowable within WP:ABOUTSELF (except item 5 stipulates "the article is not based primarily on such sources", which this article is). On their own I'm not sure these references sufficiently establish notability, which was another primary concern in the earlier AfD. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:05, 14 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Citations to non-English sources are explicitly allowed by WP:V, and there appear to be other Somali-language sources available to support the subject's notability. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:13, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm more concerned that four of the five sources were written by the subject himself, as these would presumably establish his notability. I'm not seeing these other sources, at least not via the above "find sources" links.  To put it another way, I'm unable to verify this or previous iterations of this article, which say the subject is a diplomat, or was a presidential adviser (which would indeed be notable). -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 17:29, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The search is complicated by the fact that the subject appears to use many different name variations, which makes it hard to search. A326, can you weigh in? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:11, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * A326, in response to my question at their talk page, offered this link. It does mention "Ahmed Haji Hajji Ibrahim Artan," but I am unsure in what context. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:11, 14 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi Nikkimaria Ahmed Ibrahim Artan is a Somali athor and polition well known as Ahmed Haaji Bakiin. (Haaji Bakiin)is a father's nickname, and he was the owner of hotels and bares called Bakiin in the capital city of Somalia his father is Polition as well Ibrahim Artan Ismail. The father  has 32 children including Ahmed fortunately Ahmed became well known then the athers. Family name Artan  was a Somali ruler. He led the Ali Saleebaan  Sultanate during its Golden Age in the mid-19th to early 20th centuries. Along with Sultan Yusuf Ali Kenadid of the Sultanate of Hobyo and Sultan Mohamoud Ali Shire of the Warsangali Sultanate, Beeldaaje Artan  was one of the forth  prominent rulers of present-day Somalia at the turn of the 20th century.people call him Ahmed Haaji Bakiin, Ahmed Haaji Ibrahim Artan Beeldaaje, or  (Ahmed Ibrahim Artan wich is his birth name) Gyrofrog  have requested to delete that article before , and it seems he's  personal attack. Gyrofrong I let you know that person from well known family and he's well known polition person who most of the people know him. We need his article to stay , and we need you to get away please.A326  (talk)--A326 19:39, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It is not my intent to attack anyone. I do want to clarify that I did not make the earlier nomination for deletion, and that I made one (not all) of the three speedy deletions. I'm not out to attack anyone or anything. My concern is that I've seen this content repeatedly re-created, while the issues with the article have yet to be addressed. As for his other name, Ahmed Haaji Bakiin, I'm not seeing much on Google other than blogs, Facebook, Google+, or things that the subject wrote himself – nothing that I'd use as a reliable source. If he's well-known, I would expect there to be more about him (written by someone else) online. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 20:22, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Gyrofrog there a lot of reliable source that written by Somali language. There millions of articles which has source written by native languages such as Arabic, Amharic and hebrew itc So that person is Somali.  A326 (talk--A326 20:50, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * you wrote your talk page ( As per Wiki History Log alot of Somalia history is or has being Omitted, Vandalized or used for personal instead of Real facts of history) it seems you hatred for Somali people that's why you are always attacking.Hatred A326 (talk--A326 21:02, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: I had clarified this at User talk:A326, but since my name is linked with it here as well: I did not write that statement on my talk page. Another user left it there for me, though I don't know if it referred to a particular article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:44, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Nikkimaria There are a lot of sources written by Somali-language, and we need you to support the article thanks A326 (talk--A326 22:11, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * We're working on it, but since we don't speak Somali we need your help to find reliable sourcing to support the article. Would it be possible to add a few more, either here or in the article itself? Ideally some that are not written by him. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:02, 15 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. &mdash;&thinsp;JJMC89&thinsp; (T·E·C) 03:35, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Somalia-related deletion discussions. &mdash;&thinsp;JJMC89&thinsp; (T·E·C) 03:35, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * WikiProject Somalia notified. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:09, 15 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete articles need to have sources other than the subjects own works. Beyond that being "an advisor" to the President of Somalia (which one is unclear) sounds notable on first glance, but without further explanation could mean anything. Presidents can have a whole lot of people giving them advice, and not all such people will be notable.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:21, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment I think it would be better for people to work on fleshing out the article on Ibrahim Artan Ismail with more indepth details. For example, from that article one would suppose he has no children.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:23, 15 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Nikkimaria The resourcing we have is here       Also I'm still working on that article  I don't have all his life history but I'm searching a lot more about his life history positions that he held and book that he wrote so I need more chance to complete all the resource. In election time probably  I'll get more resource written by English, news will talk about his early life and positions that he held during that time. please I need more chance promise I'll write more about his life and I will bring more resource.Please I need you guys to remove deletion tag on the article. hopeful Thanks A326 (talk--A326 14:06, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Nikkimaria Here tody news about Somalia A326 (talk --A326 16:29, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Gyrofrog did you see the link ? A326 (talk--A326 18:36, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I've incorporated the link into the article. However, the impeachment issue does seem to have garnered a fair amount of coverage (Google news), so I must admit I'm curious why only this one source saw fit to quote this person. (Note that when you add "/link" to the end of a link, it breaks it. Do it like link, with a space before the word "link".) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:50, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * with space ok thanks link A326 (talk--A326 19:11, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * A326, now I see where I misread the linked news article: it's written in such a way that it kind of implies he advised Hassan Sheikh Mohamoud. When I re-read it I can see that isn't what it says. However, you changed the president's name to Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed, who isn't mentioned in the news article. It doesn't specify which president he advised; John Pack Lambert had already mentioned this among his concerns. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 20:11, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * He was the adviser of Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed during his tine in office letter he served in same position during Sheikh Sharif Ahmad late 2012 president Hassan appointed a anther person on that position. Thanks A326 (talk--A326 20:30, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I understand, but the link doesn't say anything about that. We can cite that link to say he was an adviser (which it specifies), but not for whom (because it doesn't specify). We would need another source about him advising Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:24, 15 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep - on balance I think the additional sourcing is sufficient to indicate notability, and I'm hopeful that A326 will be able to continue to improve the article using available Somali-language sources as well. (A326: note that the tag won't be removed until the AFD is closed, which usually happens after 7 days). Nikkimaria (talk) 19:18, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Nikkimaria thank you very mach I'll work more about it.A326 (talk--A326 19:22, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Additional time for discussion and evaluation of foreign language sources. Xymmax So let it be written   So let it be done  23:58, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Xymmax So let it be written   So let it be done  23:58, 21 August 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — ☮ JAaron95  Talk  06:12, 28 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.