Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Air Solutions


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Jayjg (talk) 02:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Air Solutions

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Non-notable company. Limited GHits and GNEWS. Appears to fail WP:COMPANY  ttonyb (talk) 20:22, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - For people who are aviation fanatics and track the airlines that have existed in Florida and the United States this information is of importance for guidance and to establish a precedence of what has been done and what could be done. In this article not only did they establish a route that did not exist in Florida, that specific route was so important for the large Haiten Community in Central Florida and South Florida, they also were the company who kept Chalks Ocean Airways in business after their fatal crash that ended up causing Chalk's demise. It is also important to note it's founder's young age, it's is believe to be the youngest person to own/operate and Air Carrier Certificate in the U.S. Information necessary to verify all information was also provided in article This article should not be deleted and there are other less notable air taxi/airlines included in wikipedia that have not suffered this process and have a page with information, more information will be provided by other people that had part or dealt with this notable Air Carrier —Preceding unsigned comment added by Md80stud (talk • contribs) 20:23, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Question Appreciating Md80stud's point about the article being of interest to aviation fanatics, I wonder if there is a more appropriate wiki that specifically caters to such an audience that we might transwiki this content to?  Skomorokh,  barbarian   20:40, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - Good point! There is so much valuable information that gets lost in the world of aviation because of people like this claiming that this company is a non-notable company. Under what system do you grade this page as such. Review of WP:COMPANY does not seem to indicate such. All information in page is verifiable and further more notates how one small entity of individuals connected a segment of the Haiten community with their relatives in a remote area of Haiti. Along with contributing with keeping the existence of the world's oldest known airline while they worked their legal issues after a fatal crash. There is so much more than can be contributed and is valuable information to business people and aviation enthusiasts around the world. --Aviationfreak 20:52, 22 November 2009 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Md80stud (talk • contribs)
 * Please note that your "keep" recommendation has already been counted above. If you have more to say in favor of this article, please feel free to do so, but label it with Comment in boldface to avoid making it look like you are casting a duplicate "vote". --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:16, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Let's try to keep this a civil discussion, referring to someone as "people like this" can be seen as a derogatory comment. The criteria to establish notability from WP:COMPANY, "A company, corporation, organization, team, religion, group, product, or service is notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, and independent of the subject."   ttonyb  (talk) 21:07, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment - Seems like a civil discussion and no derogatory comments have been made or referred to. The moderator makes reference once again to secondary sources, I am surprised that he considers the U.S. Department of Transportation not a valid source. I recommend this moderator reviews the process of obtaining an air carrier certificate and further reviews the importance of obtaining a Route and how that mention and distinction by the US DOT is an acceptable secondary source. He should familiarize himself with all aspects of the article before making assumptions. Again we need other review by other parties that have knowledge in the area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.157.0.87 (talk) 21:17, 22 November 2009 (UTC)  — 68.157.0.87 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Comment – Lists of airlines or AC Airworthy Cert lists are not considered as significant coverage. Significant coverage is defined by Wikipedia as, "more than a trivial mention."  Notability is not established by the complexity of FAA certification, but by coverage as defined in WP:NOTE and WP:COMPANY.  If mere certification established notability, then acquisition of an aircraft type rating or an ATP might be used to argue notability for an individual.  Please do not assume I have no idea of the process to obtain Part 380 certification or Part 121; however, the complex nature of certification is not the issue here.  The issue is whether or not the article meets the criteria for inclusion as defined in the sections listed above.   ttonyb  (talk) 00:52, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete based on current content. Notability (organizations and companies) provides that an organization is generally considered notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources. So far, I have been unable to find any significant coverage of this airline in reliable, independent secondary sources. The fact that this airline shows up in private and/or government databases as owning an airplane, or that the FAA licensed it to operate certain charter flights, basically proves that the airline existed, but not that it was notable. Furthermore, I can find no sources that mention any relationship between Air Solutions and Chalk's, nor any sources commenting on the young age of Air Solutions' founder. I may reconsider if proper secondary sources are added to the article. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:16, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Comment - What are acceptable secondary sources and how do we submit them for review with you? Same thing about the main founder and his team? There is relevance to this company and would like to help maintain it in wiki. Thank you!--Aviationfreak 14:12, 24 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Md80stud (talk • contribs)
 * Comment – Source information can be found in Reliable sources, Primary, secondary and tertiary sources, and secondary sources sections.  Once you have reviewed the sections, you can add the references into the article or you can ask one of us on our talk page to take a look at the information you are considering.  Probably one of the easiest to find would be news reports about the organization.  Most major and a good number of smaller papers have archives that can be accessed.  Don't worry about the format of the reference, we can fix that later.  ttonyb  (talk) 16:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tim Song (talk) 00:17, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:50, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:50, 29 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - Thank you for helping keep that page open for further discussion, this company is notable on its own and is not self promoting itself in anyway. It has provided plenty of sources to prove its operations, show its aircrafts, indicate and verify the directors, and shown that the never before flown route of Orlando to Cap Hiaten, Haiti was started by them and approved by the D.O.T., which is a notable event itself to keep, granted it might not have a huge relevance it complies with the minimum required to keep even under a weak keep avoid it's deletion by someone who really has not much knowledge of the difficulty and the experience necessary to start and operate and airline. Aviation fanatics love to read and have the knowledge of articles like this one. I personally know some of these individuals and can attest to what they accomplished. I am working to have others come post and support the article. Unfortunately Chalk's Ocean Airways is out of business so it is hard to obtain the verification the moderator requested only the employees are able and willing to attest to the so many flights conducted by Air Solutions to help them stay in business. What else can be done to avoid this page from being permanently deleted. Thanks for your input, I will tell the page creator that the discussion is still open and page is not deleted yet so obtain more support. --68.157.0.87 (talk) 21:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC) — 68.157.0.87 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Comment – Again, "real-world" notability is not the same as Wikipedia notability.  A company is not notable on its own, but rather as a result of whether or not the article meets the criteria for inclusion as defined in the  notability and supported by verifiable, independent, third-party sources.  Your continued assertion that approval by DOT is a notable event may be true in the "real-world", but it does not meet the requirements of notability.  If you believe it does, please provide how it does supported by the sections of Wikipedia guidelines that apply.  As indicated above, the sources you provided to show it operated, had aircraft, had directors, and operated a never before flown route of Orlando to Cap Hiaten, Haiti, are inadequate to support Wikipedia notability.   ttonyb  (talk) 22:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I don't see any sources that say that this was the first airline to fly between Orlando and Cap-Haitien International Airport. The company may have been licensed to fly between those points but nothing in the sources provided says anything about it being the first to do so. Nor do we need employees of Chalk's International Airlines to provide evidence of the relationship between Chalk's and Air Solutions. Rather, I would expect some newspaper or aviation publication to be cited for a statement that Chalk's was contracting with Air Solutions to operate its flights (or whatever their relationship actually was). Similarly, if Air Solutions was based in Orlando, I would expect there to be citations to the local Orlando media stating that Air Solutions was starting operations at Orlando International Airport or stopping such operations. User:Ttonyb1 already explained the need for additional sources over a week ago; I don't understand why some of the supporters of this article seem content to rest on their laurels and not provide any media sources. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, I would like to know if there is any connection between User:68.157.0.87 and User:Md80stud, both of whom have recommended "keep" in this discussion. I am raising this issue in light of this edit and this edit. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:20, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Both editors have a limited number of edits and as such I assume he/she/they are unaware of WP:SOCK. I would give them a day or two to fix the issue by noting the relationship or lack of and if necessary removing the duplicate "vote".  If you are not satisfied in a day or two you might consider initiating a sockpuppetry complaint.  If either Metropolitan90, 68.157.0.87, or Md80stud wish to discuss this further, I suggest we move this to my talk page. My best to all...  ttonyb  (talk) 03:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

That user and myself are both different users, while we do know each other and worked together in the past that has nothing to do with expressing the way we feel about the article in question. I have been trying to find information as he suggested and you all recommended to make this a more notable article. Please review is any information from this 3rd party is useful and how it could be applied to the article. http://www.madcowprod.com/06252007a.html, they make reference to the number of flights that Air Solutions operated to Haiti. I will continue to research for other 3rd party references and verification.--Aviationfreak 20:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Md80stud (talk • contribs)  Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite 00:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I could be wrong, but that site looks like a questionable source which I would be reluctant to cite in Wikipedia. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 14:26, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per the lack of significant coverage in reliable sources. There is no indication that Air Solutions passes Wikipedia's inclusion guidelines. Cunard (talk) 00:22, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete, a distinct absence of coverage in independent reliable sources means the company fails WP:GNG. Nuttah (talk) 10:34, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.