Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alan Fleming-Baird


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. JohnCD (talk) 17:53, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Alan Fleming-Baird

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Lack of sources challenged for over three years and still no substantial independent references to provide evidence of notability. Maintenance and PROD tags removed without explanation or improvement to the article. Deskford (talk) 11:57, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions.  —Deskford (talk) 12:02, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  —Deskford (talk) 12:06, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Weak keep He's a young composer starting out, which puts him on the edge of notability, but the footnoted media recordings of his music and the The Herald (Glasgow) review of a performance (albeit by student ensemble) indicate an article with potential for the future. AllyD (talk) 14:54, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "...potential for the future..." smacks too much of WP:CRYSTAL: people must be notable now, and the fact must be verifiable. I have spent almost 3 hours on this guy and found far more suggesting self-promotion by fabrication than genuine notability testified in reliable sources. --Jubilee♫ clipman  17:40, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. I'm not finding much on him. Question, are these anything notable? . ♫ Cricket02  (talk) 19:47, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It's hard to tell. They all seem to have the same text as the lead sentence of the Wikipedia article, with "[WP]" at the end.  Does this mean they are acknowledging Wikipedia as a source?  If so, we can't cite them or we would have a circular reference.  They also all seem to use that slightly odd phrase "works for large orchestras", which the Wikipedia article had also until it was edited to "works for large orchestra" on 3 August 2008 here.  --Deskford (talk) 20:21, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * One of them seems to quote a Wikipedia article on "Fable Theatre Company", which was deleted per Articles for deletion/Fable Theatre Company in 2005. --Deskford (talk) 20:27, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * On page ii of each of these books, it is explained that [WP] explicitly acknowledges quotations from Wikipedia: these are indeed circular refs... --Jubilee♫ clipman  16:25, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 *  Weak Delete. Difficult one. He has a page on his website with what appear to be extracts from reviews of the type we need, but I can't find them on the net. The Herald ref by itself is obviously insufficient. I will change my ivote if anyone can dig anything up which is more substantial. -- Klein zach  00:29, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought that at first, but the only one of those review quotes I could track down was the one from the Independent: "teeters on the cusp between Enlightenment and Romanticism, a position our era readily recognises. That's one reason why the opera fascinates and infuriates." The quote turns out to refer to The Magic Flute, which as far as I remember wasn't written by anyone called Fleming-Baird, and his name doesn't appear in the article as represented on the newspaper's own website.  --Deskford (talk) 01:07, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Mmm. Doesn't look good. -- Klein zach  01:17, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * This MySpace page explains that one of the versions of that opera (Forbidden Flute) was "written by Sylvia Freeman and Alan Fleming-Baird, produced by Karen Walton (with funding from Sir Cameron MacIntosh and Stephen Fry), and directed by Sarah Chew (who devised the idea)". Without reviews actually naming this composer, we have nothing (unless the other notable figures mentioned are useful, at all).  The quote does indeed refer to Mozart's opera rather than this particular version of it.  Hence my comments below. --Jubilee♫ clipman  17:33, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete. Cannot find enough to establish notability.  ♫ Cricket02  (talk) 04:20, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - There is certainly a ton of stuff on the web, but all of it appears to be on social networking/self-promotional/fan/wiki-type sites (unreliable/first-party) or explicitly quotes WP (circular) and is thus unusable.  Worse still, several of the "reviews" he has concocted for himself appear to have been quoted entirely out of context.  Only one—the Herald, already cited in the article—is both relevent and useful but it is not enough to establish notability; the others are so vague that they are exceptionally difficult to trace and therefore verify.  Hats off to Deskford for tracking down the Magic Flute quote, above.  In that particular case, it appears that the composer (or his agent) has resorted to equivocation: we have a quote refering to the original opera used in such an manner that it appers to refer to the version of this opera prepared jointly by Sylvia Freeman and Alan Fleming-Baird for a specific occasion.  AFB is not even mentioned, even obliquely, in the article.  If even the composer himself has use misdirection and misquotation (pure blatant dishonesty, in fact) to fabricate "reviews" for his own music, what hope do we have of finding any RSs?  Probably zilch...  --Jubilee♫ clipman  17:30, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.