Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alan Gottlieb


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. (non-admin closure) DavidLeighEllis (talk) 01:49, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Alan Gottlieb

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Unsourced, contentious BLP. How did this get past new page patrol? Should be deleted on sight. Viriditas (talk) 02:30, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.  Jinkinson   talk to me  02:49, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Washington-related deletion discussions.  Jinkinson   talk to me  02:50, 3 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep per substantial coverage in reliable sources, including, but not limited to, the following:    Also, with regard to the nom's claim, I don't see anything that contentious.  Jinkinson   talk to me  02:52, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The contentious material appears on the talk page and the current version of the article is almost completely unsourced, which for a BLP is not acceptable. The sources you've linked above do not make a case for independent secondary source notability at all, they merely demonstrate that he's a paid advocate for the gun industry, which is hardly a notable position.  The first source you offer (nydailynews.com) isn't about the subject, it's about pro-gun groups in the U.S. and it quotes the subject as a paid advocate for the Second Amendment Foundation.  So you've made a good argument for the article to be redirected to the Second Amendment Foundation, not for the independent existence of a biographical article on their employee. The second link you've provided (seattletimes.com) is again, about the Second Amendment Foundation and the subject's role as their spokesman.  Again, you've provided an argument for this article to be redirected to the parent topic on the Second Amendment Foundation, not for the independent existence of a biographical article on their employee.  The third link you've provided (piersmorgan.blogs.cnn.com) is an interview with the "Second Amendment Foundation Founder and Vice President", who happens to be the subject of this article.  For the third time, you've made a good argument for this article to redirect to the Second Amendment Foundation, not for the independent existence of this subject who does not appear to be notable, and as we all know, notability is not inherited from the parent topic.  The last link you've offered (washingtontimes.com) has nothing to do with this subject at all.  If you actually have a single independent reliable source about the subject, and not about or for the Second Amendment Foundation, then please provide it. Otherwise, I can see no reason not to redirect this unsourced biography to the Second Amendment Foundation parent topic.  Notability is not inherited.  All the sources you've offered are about the Second Amendment Foundation and the work that Alan Gottlieb does for the group. He does not appear to be notable outside that subject. Viriditas (talk) 03:09, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, I see what you're saying. However, I have been able to find other reliable, independent sources which discuss him in contexts other than as the founder of the Second Amendment Foundation:  . Thus I think he is not merely a BLP1E, and he seems, in my opinion, to have attained notability independently of the organization he founded.  Jinkinson   talk to me  04:49, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The first source you present, The Jewish Daily Forward, is an article about Jewish gun leaders in the aftermath of the Newtown massacre. Gottlieb is one of many people mentioned in the article. He's presented as the "founder of the Second Amendment Foundation and head of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms".  It seems to me that his identity is inseparable as a spokesperson for the Second Amendment Foundation.  The second source you offer is from Reason magazine.  It's an article about a gun rights case,  D.C. v. Heller, not Gottlieb.  He is briefly mentioned as the "founder and president of the Second Amendment Foundation", and his position as the spokesperson is inseparable from the organization. The third source, an article in the National Journal, is about the failure of gun control legislation in the Senate, particularly the status of background checks.  It briefly mentions  Gottlieb as the "chairman of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms", a group that, according to Wikipedia, is "closely affiliated with the Second Amendment Foundation".  Looks like we are back full circle.  I'm not seeing any sources about Gottlieb.  Why does Wikipedia have an article on him? Viriditas (talk) 09:56, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Conservatism-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:02, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:02, 3 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Speedy keep. Noted author of many books.  Also known for founding the Second Amendment Foundation.  Also know for his activism, and lengthy involvement in civil right court cases involving the Second Amendment.  Looks like a clear cut case of notability in multiple areas, many of which are outside of the Second Amendment Foundation. Not sure why this article was even considered in an AfD.  Miguel Escopeta (talk) 17:59, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Surely these books have received important book reviews? I've seen no indication he has notable outside the Second Amendment Foundation.  If you can demonstrate why this unsourced biography should not be redirected, then please provide good sources about the subject. Unsourced biographies get redirected. Viriditas (talk) 09:43, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment - Content seems to be largely based upon THIS apparently self-written CV. That said, I think the large number of published books and prominence in the mediasphere lends much to the idea that this is a topic worthy of encyclopedic biography, assuming there are sources out there... Carrite (talk) 01:12, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment - Ah, here we go... Significant coverage in Church-State Issues in America Today, edited by Ann W. Duncan, Steven L. Jones, noting that Gottlieb raised over $100 million for Ronald Reagan's 1980 and 1984 Presidential campaigns... Carrite (talk) 01:17, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Changing the search parameters to "Alan Gottlieb" + NRA + Reagan generates THIS ARTICLE from The Seattle Times (main newspaper of an American metropolis), "Bellevue gun-rights advocate becomes key player in national debate." It notes that Gottlieb will have made 300 television appearances in 2013. He's a public figure. Carrite (talk) 01:20, 5 March 2014 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 01:22, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * And HERE is a significant mention in another book, The War Against the Greens, by David Helvarg — in which Gottlieb is paired with Richard Viguerie as a key fundraiser of the Reagan-era New Right. Carrite (talk) 01:25, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * And HERE is the Albion Monitor from 1995 with a lengthy "Inquiring Minds Want to Know"-type biography. Carrite (talk) 01:27, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * And THIS is Seattle Weekly (large circulation, reputable, free tabloid) coverage of Gottlieb's political activity, focusing upon him. Carrite (talk) 01:29, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Now it's THE NEW YORK TIMES, quoting Gottlieb as an expert. Carrite (talk) 01:31, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Not to mention SALON, getting Gottlieb's views and passing them along for their readers. Carrite (talk) 01:32, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep - Slam-dunk GNG pass, per the above and innumerable other sources all over the internets. This is a VERY major American political figure. Bad nomination. Carrite (talk) 01:33, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep - The subject passes WP:BASIC. Source examples include:, , . NorthAmerica1000 08:53, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep. Seems notable to me. Bali88 (talk) 23:48, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep - Seems to have plenty of significant coverage from reliable sources. The article just needs to add citations to those sources. Orser67 (talk) 15:49, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.