Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alan Kurdi


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. With all due respect to those who vote "delete" (for 1Event reasons, mostly): you have a point, but there is no reason to keep this open longer with such an overwhelming number of "keep" votes. Add up the "merge" and "redirect" votes and it is clear that WP:SNOW applies; the few more days that this is supposed to run cannot change that calculus significantly, and "no consensus" is probably the "lowest" outcome possible even for a longer discussion. Drmies (talk) 16:56, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Alan Kurdi

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 * linus

The subject is not notable as a biography. His death was not notable in itself - one of thousands drowned in the Mediterranean while trying to migrate. Not notable for being dragged out of the water lifeless with open eyes, and having the eyes shut by the man pulling him out of the water. Not notable for later being found with face in the water, and body on land. Only the reactions to the death photos of him are notable. Burst of unj (talk) 10:21, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment What Wikipedia policy is the nomination based on? It's a list of things that may or may not have happened in the course of this little boy's death but I don't see policy at play, other than, vaguely, "notability". We certainly have articles for the deaths of non-notable people, often titled "Death of...". His death is certainly notable, as is the reaction to his death. Yes, thousands of refugees have died in this crisis, but this one has been well-covered in the news. So, yes, a notable death for someone who never had a chance to be notable. I would be fine with a redirect to "Death of Alan Kurdi. freshacconci talk to me  13:19, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Death of Alan Kurdi. Clearly passes WP:GNG Spiderone  13:24, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep and move to Death of Alan Kurdi, well and truly passes WP:SIGCOV, but as a news event, not a biography. WWGB (talk) 14:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - Many wikipedians on the German page  want the Alan Kurdi article to be moved to Photographs of Alan Kurdi or Photograph of Alan Kurdi; i will try to translate some of the arguments. Please be aware that the rules on that wikipedia might be somewhat different than our rules. Therefore a comment there is meant for a readership with slightly different wikipedia rules. The following points are from the ongoing deletion discussion of their Alan Kurdi article:
 * "Lemma eventually move to "Foto of Aylan Kurdi" (...) - Brunswyk (Diskussion) 20:03, 3. Sep. 2015 (CEST)
 * "The article is about the story of the photos and their reception and effect ... and not about the persona of the boy. (...) move to another lemma". Geolina mente et malleo ✎ 21:17, 4. Sep. 2015 (translated by Burst of unj (talk) 13:46, 6 September 2015 (UTC))
 * "I suggest to change the name of the article, instead of Aylan Kurdi - rather "Photo of Aylan Kurdi" --Loewenmuth (Diskussion) 21:20, 4. Sep. 2015 (CEST) -
 * "I see the problems in the same way as Geoline above: The Photo is relevant, the boy is highly relevant - but not for a biographic wikipedia article." --Radsportler.svg Nicola - Ming Klaaf 10:33, 5. Sep. 2015
 * "Keep, preferably with a lemma move (for example "Photographs of Aylan Kurdi" or such), because this is less about the biography and more about the photos." --CG (Diskussion) 10:49, 5. Sep. 2015
 * "The lemma should be moved to "Photograph of Aylan Kurdi". The article consists largely of the worldwide reception of the photograph and reception of the fate of the boy." -- 5. September 2015, 11:03 Uhr - translated  by Burst of unj (talk) 13:46, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "As Geolina and Nicola. (...) A biographic article is yet not in place." --Fiona (Diskussion) 12:09, 5. Sep. 2015 -- translated and placed here by Burst of unj (talk) 13:46, 6 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment How is it possible to redirect to Death of Alan Kurdi if the latter is itself a redirect to this article? Unless the users above mean renaming the article. As far as the subject is concerned, keep as it is clearly notable (with no prejudice against a rename).  Mar4d  ( talk ) 14:18, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete and redirect to Photographs of Alan Kurdi. Apparently this boy was not notable; his photographs are. --Neo-Jay (talk) 14:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep, because not only one photo was published, but also a story behind it, which is getting a symbol for the European migrant crisis. --Ceroles (talk) 15:14, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * keep. As long as the article reflects the tragedy of thousands of refugees on their way to Europe, we should keep it. Furthermore his biography is needed to understand the photos/videos. By the way, this article is already available in 14 different languages on Wiki. Edit: keep both--Moplayer (talk) 15:33, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:BLP1E and WP:NOTNEWS. There is no basis for an enyclopedic biography article. Time might or might not establish the photograph as a notable one, or the death as a notable death. If it has enduring coverage beynd a news cycle, then an article could be created about the death or the photograph. Wikipeia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a lurid tabloid. Edison (talk) 15:58, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - Article is very informative and is based on real story, there are many completely useless articles that are not being deleted. Worry about those first.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 16:36, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep – That boy is popular through mainstream despite that lacks notability, But there is need to be an article about Aylan Kurdi and this article can be kept as historic record in the future which may occur similar event(s) in the future, and everyone may know what actually happened to this boy. ♔ MONARCH Ask me 17:24, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep and move to Death of Alan Kurdi. This is not WP:BLP1E and WP:NOTNEWS as it is clearly already a significant news event. Renaming it as "Photographs of Alan Kurdi" is a non-starter. That phrase may make sense in German but in English it's confusing. It sound like he's a photographer and we have an article on his works. "Death of..." has precedent and is accurate. It's not just photographs people are responding to. It's his death as well. The death is demonstrably notable as a news item. freshacconci talk to me  17:58, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete The boy wasn't notable, his death wasn't notable, the coverage was notable, and only for noting the photograph with astounding repetition. The pertinent bits from this and the photo article should be included in the ridiculously short Nilüfer Demir article, and only there. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:11, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep I am absolutely astounded that this article should be proposed for deletion.  It is one of the most important stories of recent months, even years.  Its affect on policy re. refugees in Europe and around the world has been nothing less than cataclysmic.  It has affected everyone who has seen the photos and engaged with the story - we're talking here of hundreds of millions of people. The photos themselves will still be famous decades ahead.  If this article were to be deleted by Wikipedia that in itself would generate headlines, and rightly so. Boscaswell (talk) 18:28, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong keep Article easily meets the general notability guideline given the wealth of sources. Rename discussions are already happening, and that should be the proper forum for the nominator's concerns. Patar knight - chat/contributions 19:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Death of Alan Kurdi. It was specifically his death that made him notable (WP:ONEEVENT) and of course the reaction to it. I find the nominator's post here very objectionable - rather heartless and disrespectful. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 20:55, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge with and then redirect to Photographs of Alan Kurdi. The one reason this victim is notable among many thousands of drowned migrants are the photographs and the world's reaction to them. --Lambiam 21:32, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * comment - WP:1EVENT only applies to BLPs. Flat Out (talk) 00:49, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Nothing in that guideline suggests that it applies to living people only. You may be confusing it with WP:BLP1E. --Lambiam 11:53, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep - I was amazed to see this article listed for deletion. The photographs of him and story of his death were incredibly widely spread and made the story of the refugee crisis a lot more real instead of just numbers. But to have articles only on his death / photos seems to be disrespectful. It would be very unfortunate if this article was deleted when Wikipedia has, for example, 13 lists of Pokémon. Josephus37 (talk) 00:39, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Lack of respect is not a valid argument in deletion discussions. See also WP:OTHERSTUFF. --Lambiam 12:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Strong keep - the coverage of the subject is broader than the photographs and meets WP:GNG. Flat Out (talk) 00:48, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Note to other editors: I had no idea that there was a second article Photos of Aylan Kurdi's corpse created as a POVFORK by the same editor who nominated this article for deletion. There is a deletion discussion there as well. Other editors should be informed about this as the various discussions around naming etc. is getting confusing. freshacconci talk to me  01:15, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You have not been paying attention to the relevant talk page . I have created an article about a different topic, that in some ways overlaps the topic you feel should be the main topic. I have shown (thru translations) some of the significant support for the idea that only the Photographs of Alan Kurdi is a notable title/subject. I claim that this article is not a POVFORK of another article, and I also claim that I have not created it as such. Please note that I did coatrack some text about the photos in the Alan Kurdi article before I started the "Photographs- article": The reason being that the Alan Kurdi article was at the time the least inappropriate place to put the text. (If the "Photographs- article" already had existed, I would not have bothered improving the Alan Kurdi article, and I would have placed the photo related details in the right place from the start. And I probably would not have to be hearing about Newspeak POVFORK at this point in time.) --Burst of unj (talk) 06:57, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Strong keep - There are many similar biographical articles on WP about people who became notable as subjects of iconic photographs. Some closely analogous examples include Florence Owens Thompson and Marcy Borders. The circumstances of the life of Alan Kurdi are relevant for understanding the impact that the images of his lifeless body are having on the public discussion of the Syrian refugee crisis.--Distinguisher (talk) 05:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't feel what you are saying. If you also had mentioned Death of Wang Yue, still that example would not convince me, nor if you had mentioned Death of Benno Ohnesorg. Burst of unj (talk) 07:41, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFF. --Lambiam 12:00, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The structure of my argument isn't "These other pages were allowed, so this should be too". I am saying that an article titled 'Alan Kurdi' would meet WP guidelines for the same reason these other examples do. To quote WP:ONEEVENT, "In some cases ... a person famous for only one event may be more widely known than the event itself, for example, the Tank Man. In such cases, the article about the event may be most appropriately named for the person involved." Like Alan Kurdi, the Tank Man was himself famous only as a result of being the subject of iconic images that were captured among the events that he was a part of. The Phan Thi Kim Phuc article is yet another example.--Distinguisher (talk) 14:31, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Please add that Tank Man showed civil courage, by voluntarily putting his fate in the jaws of death to protect the people of China. A three-year-old is not expected to show civil courage, and we don't know that he did. Comparing Kurdi with Tank Man is inappropriate against Tank Man (whose fate some claim is unknown). --Burst of unj (talk) 15:01, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There is nothing in the guidelines that says to name an article after the person the event is identified with, but only if that person displayed civil courage.--Distinguisher (talk) 15:27, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If you are going to equate Kurdi with Tank Man, then I am calling you out. If one says that Tank Man risked his life voluntarily, then your quote as follows - becomes less "incomplete"; " Like Alan Kurdi, the Tank Man was himself famous only as a result of being the subject of iconic images that were captured among the events that he was a part of." --Burst of unj (talk) 15:51, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. There are similarities and differences between Kurdi and Tank Man. I'm arguing that they are similar in relevant ways and different in irrelevant ways.--Distinguisher (talk) 16:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Tank Man was (or is) a hero for forcing a tank commander to run his vehicle over Tank Man, or try to manouever around him; Kurdi on the other hand was a three-year-old victim of circumstances, no different than thousands of others during this refugee crisis (and his dead body figures on photos with a notable impact). Calling that "different in irrelevant ways", is a cupfull. Burst of unj (talk) 18:39, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, Tank Man was a hero and Alan Kurdi was a victim of circumstances. There is no dispute about that. Both are well known across the world with significant public curiosity about, and media interest in, their biographies because both have come to represent the human face of a political issue. They each stand in a symbolic relation to those issues as icons. It is true that Alan Kurdi is among many who have drowned attempting to reach European shores, but he is quite clearly different insofar as he and not the others was turned into a politically mobilizing symbol. Tank Man is also far from being alone in having the bravery to stand up to authority. Importantly, neither would be widely known or politically relevant if they hadn't been captured on camera. It is exceedingly unlikely that there would be a WP article about Tank Man if the journalist who filmed him had only written about his actions. As brave as they were, they would have achieved nothing without that footage and he would not have become an icon of resistance. He gained that status by representing something extraordinary and being photographed.--Distinguisher (talk) 19:52, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * For now I am not arguing that possibility he has become a symbol - a "politically mobilizing symbol". But whatever he has become a symbol for, then that article should have a section about him in addition to a "Reaction to the photos-" or Photographs of Alan Kurdi article. (Another alternative would be to find, or create guidelines about "politically mobilizing symbols"; what are the criteria for the notable ones?) Burst of unj (talk) 20:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * COMMENT. I suggest this be closed as a snow keep to avoid wasting further time. WWGB (talk) 06:27, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The fine wikipedians on the German page have had their deletion discussion going longer than our discussion. And part of the reason is that not even the death is notable in the case of this article, and certainly not the biography unfortunately. However, details of his life have saturated the media. Those details belong in a Reaction to the death of Alan Kurdi or Photographs of Alan Kurdi or some other title that does not start with "The death of", or simply "Alan Kurdi". Why only (?) the German wikipedia and this one are discussing that a encyclopedia should not have articles called "Death of Alan Kurdi" or "Alan Kurdi", I don't know. Sorry if someones feelings are hurt, by any perceived insensitivity. --Burst of unj (talk) 07:16, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * KEEP: while I agree that "His death was not notable in itself - one of thousands drowned in the Mediterranean while trying to migrate. Not notable for being dragged out of the water lifeless with open eyes, and having the eyes shut by the man pulling him out of the water. Not notable for later being found with face in the water, and body on land. Only the reactions to the death photos of him are notable", the press coverage and reactions to the photos, for whatever good or bad reasons, have been so huge that it really is a very notable event. --Jacques de Selliers (talk) 08:03, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * STRONG KEEP - Many similar biographical articles of one individual representing an greater issue/event, and the refugee crisis is quite a notable event --Pinnecco (talk) 10:06, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Arguably there are no similar articles (and yes there are articles out there that would not survive a deletion discussion). If the article is kept (in its current name), it is not likely that it will be kept because of other articles have not been deleted, or renamed, yet. Wikipedia does not have such a guideline. Burst of unj (talk) 10:48, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete: His life is not notable however the coverage and photographs of his death were notable.--Opdire657 (talk) 11:53, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There is abundant media interest in the biographical details of Alan's family, the circumstances that drove them to leave Syria, a previous attempt to seek refuge in Canada and so on, so the news media appear to regard the details of his life to be notable. It's not through his own efforts that he came to symbolize the refugee crisis, but why should that matter for notability? There have also been reports about reports including discussions about the impact of the image and whether such a private moment should have been published, etc. The existence of these meta-reports would also justify including content about the topics you take to be notable ("the coverage and photographs of his death"), but I think it would be hard to argue that the news of the events is more notable that the events themselves in this case.--Distinguisher (talk) 16:08, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * So, shouldn't that mean his family deserves an article? He had no say in these decisions the media is interested in. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:35, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The media interest in his family is in relation to him. It provides context about his life. And it's clear that Alan didn't come to the world's attention by achieving some feat in the manner of a scientist, artist, athlete and so on, but not everyone becomes notable that way. At two years of age, Prince George of Cambridge is also presumably notable, though through no effort of his own. Henrietta Lacks and various other people who happened to be born a certain way that later turned out be significant are notable without having any choice in the matter. We shouldn't equate regarding someone as notable with bestowing an honor on them. Notable people can be famous for doing bad things as well as good things, or just because they happened (without any particular ambition) to find themselves in a role that later proved significant.--Distinguisher (talk) 14:05, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep: The name of this boy yields around 10 million results on Google. Also, the pictures of his dead body and the many articles published around the story of their family and his death have also made him notable one way or another. I believe if Wikipedia has articles regarding the Tank Man and Florence Owens Thompson there is no justification for deletion of this article. Saeed alaee (talk) 13:42, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Syria-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:49, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Europe-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:49, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:49, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:50, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The comparison is flawed: Tank Man risked his life voluntarily - an act of civil courage. The article about the lady is the redirect from the name of the iconic photo (of her) - Migrant Mother. There is an unfinished discussion going on at the talk page there regarding if she is notable. However that discussion has not been closed, so it should not impact this discussion (at least not yet). One question seems to be: Are we going to lower our present threshold for biographic articles? I say no: There is enough notability for an article about "Reaction to photos of-" or Photographs of Alan Kurdi, but not for a "Death of -" or "Alan Kurdi" article. No insensitivity intended. Burst of unj (talk) 15:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep and Rename to Death of Alan Kurdi per WP:1E. -Zanhe (talk) 22:25, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - From the deletion discussion on the German page: "A seperate biography I find fully overdrawn. Delete and work the photo into the article about the Refugee Crisis in Europe 2015 - that would be my suggestion. --Saliwo (Diskussion) 12:35, 7. Sep. 20152"; translated from German --Burst of unj (talk) 00:35, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This is not the German Wiki, so don't mix it up. I saw many of your posts belonging to this topic. Every time you are just translating sentences from German and importing them here. --Ceroles (talk) 13:09, 8 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Strongly Keep. This article should not be deleted by any means.  At the very least it should remain as a memorial to this little boy and the many others who have lost their lives in this refugee crisis.  This cannot be forgotten and this entry will help keep his memory, and the senselessness of his death, and that of others, in people's minds.  That alone warrants keeping this article.  The circumstances of his death, and the global reaction to it need recording, and cannot meaningfully be done so without reference to him and his death.  I cannot believe it is being considered for deletion in comparison to some of the articles that are published on Wikipaedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Voiceforachild (talk • contribs)  — This contributor has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Thank you for your comment, Voiceforachild. However, Wikipedia is specifically not a memorial. We follow notability guidelines and that's why this discussion is taking place. freshacconci talk to me  14:49, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. His death was covered throughout the world and has had a significant influence over the asylum seeker debate throughout the world. Capitalistroadster (talk) 14:56, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The photo of his face in the surf and his body on the beach,after being dead for a few hours, influenced the debate - not his death. Burst of unj (talk) 23:01, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Uh, no. The photo is the medium which let the world know about his death. The debate is about seeing a 3 year old boy dead. You are making a semantic argument about the photo versus the content and in this case, it really is about the content. This was news because people were horrified about a 3 year old dying like that. The reason his death is notable is that the photo was available -- but that doesn't mean the death itself is not notable, the exact opposite (or more precisely, it's both the photo and the death. But like other "Death of..." articles, the Death of Alan Kurdi is probably the most appropriate title for this article, which very much should be kept. freshacconci</b> talk to me  14:57, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep and rename to death of Alan Kurdi. The event is very notable, even if the person behind it is not.VR talk  19:21, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The event being what: That he died - no differently than thousands of other migrants - or the significant publication of the Photographs of Alan Kurdi? Burst of unj (talk) 19:30, 8 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep and rename to Death of Alan Kurdi. This has become a major news item and political issue of migration. ~ EDDY  ( talk / contribs )~ 20:25, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment Please can the listing as an article for deletion now be deleted?  It is very clear that consensus does not support deletion of the article and the notice at the top of the article that it has been listed for possible deletion is IMO embarrassing to Wikipedia.Boscaswell (talk) 22:08, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Embarassment for an encyclopedia might be more of an issue when standards start slipping in the execution of present rules for the naming of articles. That should be "very clear". --Burst of unj (talk) 22:53, 8 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment: I have just gone through the comments and seen: Keep 14 (including 8 "strong keeps"), Redirecting to "Death of Alan Kurdi", (which now seems to have been deleted and redirects to this page): 7, Delete: 3, Redirect to Photographs of Alan Kurdi: 2. So, the consensus seems to be keeping the article. -Josephus37 (talk) 04:03, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You don't have to do a manual count. Just click the "Stats" link at the top of the page, under the article title. It will automatically total each category. WWGB (talk) 03:56, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, thanks! I'm not really familiar with the discussion section setup. That is good to know. According to that the "keep" votes are 18, far more than the other options. -Josephus37 (talk) 04:03, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This is a discussion "far more" than a vote casting. Perhaps more of an advisory discussion, where a board while decide upon the merits of arguments made and other factors, including established guidelines. If this whole discussion was stopped dead in its tracks, then a majority of 18 votes (against say 16) does not automatically mean the article gets kept, or kept under its present name. Burst of unj (talk) 07:47, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment to Burst of unj: Although AFDs are not votes and a majority of "keep" votes does not automatically mean keep, the number of keep versus delete is weighed along with arguments using Wikipedia guidelines. If no consensus is reached it is automatically defaulted to keep. A quick glance at this discussion shows that a majority of votes are for keep (regardless of name of article chosen) and the arguments for keep mostly use appropriate Wikipedia guidelines as justification. At this point, it is unlikely to be deleted, it will either be keep or no consensus. <b style="color:#000000;">freshacconci</b> talk to me  14:49, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Nominator is either an idiot or is trolling Account created specifically to put this up for deletion. Someone's just trying to mess with people.  Volunteer Marek   05:02, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There is room for all notable information about Kurdi, on wikipedia. Do you think the info should only be in an article about the refugee crisis? If so, it might be logical for you to say "Merge" and "Delete". Perhaps you think that the info is notable, but that the current article name is not suitable for this encyclopedia. Then you might want to say "Merge" to Photographs of Alan Kurdi, or merge to other article names that you might find more appropriate. Burst of unj (talk) 05:36, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure you understood what Volunteer Marek is saying. He isn't suggesting we delete the article. <b style="color:#000000;">freshacconci</b> talk to me  14:52, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your thoughts on the matter. Burst of unj (talk) 16:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete BLP1E - add content in European migrant crisis. -- Callinus (talk) 11:22, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If you are referring to WP:BLP1E, I suggest you read that page carefully, and note that it only applies to articles on living individuals. Robofish (talk) 20:49, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * - WP:BDP - the BLP policy applies to people who died "six months, one year, two years" ago if material is contentious. BLP1E applies and is frequently cited in cases such as this. -- Callinus (talk) 11:51, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Strong and obvious keep. The story of this boy's death and its impact is undeniably notable, and already historically significant, having received media coverage and political responses across the world. I wouldn't object to renaming the article to Death of Alan Kurdi, but there is simply no case for deletion. I believe that the nominator, Burst of unj, either doesn't understand the English Wikipedia's content policies, or is deliberately trolling. I suggest a WP:SNOW close of this AFD. Robofish (talk) 20:48, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong and obvious comment - "The story of this boy's death" is one of thousands drowned refugees. The Photographs of Alan Kurdi lying with his eyes and face in the surf, and body on land (sometime after his body was dragged on land) are what got the notable reaction. Burst of unj (talk) 22:09, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you need to give it a rest. Repeating the same thing over and over after every comment is not convincing anyone. It will be up to the closing administrator to decide if consensus is reached either way. <b style="color:#000000;">freshacconci</b> talk to me  22:48, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Çomment Burst of unj, would you please consider withdrawing your nomination, there is overwhelming consensus to merge this article into Alan Kurdi or a renamed version of same. rehashing is not productive. Flat Out (talk) 00:04, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment I agree with Flat Out and would suggest that User:Burst of unj withdraw their nomination. The page should be kept. Possibly changed to "Death of Alan Kurdi" or something similar but the consensus seems obvious that deletion is not warranted. - Josephus37 (talk) 02:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "When one does not see them, one understands the magic which creates" an encyclopedia constructed by guidelines more than by popular sentiment or "Twitterati emotional groupthink imperatives". (Paraphrasing Bild, 8 September 2015). I think we owe it to the wikipedia builders who came before us, to do better than half-arsed thoroughness, when it comes to this discussion which to a certain degree is about application of existing guidelines. (In an ideal world, this wikipedia and the German page would make their judgement at the exact same time, so that the final decision of the one site does not affect the decision of the other one. There is a good chance that the two websites will not make two similar decisions - and that should not be a problem. About your request: I think it would be imprudent for me to request likewise on the German page - even if I could write German fluently.) Burst of unj (talk) 02:19, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: Burst of unj, I don't think it is necessary to be insulting people by referring to them as being "half-arsed" or having "emotional groupthink". When we consider the treatment of other historically significant photos on wikipedia, such as the Phan Thi Kim Phuc running down the road after being napalmed or Nguyễn Văn Lém being executed, the photos themselves are arguably much more notable than the individuals but Wikipedia has articles on the people, not the photo. The only article I can see using the "photo of" title is the article Photographs of Alan Kurdi that you created. For this reason this article should be kept.- Josephus37 (talk) 02:31, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If there was a guideline, or a guideline that was followed, then Migrant Mother should be an article instead of a redirect. Last time I checked there were few articles that started with Photograph of/Photographs of/Photo of/Photos of. (Actually I did not click the links.) Photographs of Alan Kurdi is perhaps an adequate title. Give time for names to stick in regard to titles for the various photos: "Policeman Cradling Drowned Refugee Boy", "Alan Kurdi prostrate 2 June 2015 - from the side" or "Alan Kurdi prostrate 2 June 2015 - anterior blade of foot POV". I have not been convinced by arguments that "Alan Kurdi" should be kept. However I can not see any information about Kurdi that already is on wikipedia, that could not be fitted into Photographs of Alan Kurdi or some other article name. Guidelines do not say that an article name should be "Death of", if the death was not notable (but the reactions to the pictures were). Guidelines do not say that an article name should be the name of the person, if the person is not notable (but the reactions to the photos of his lifeless body are). Burst of unj (talk) 03:10, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "I have not been convinced by arguments that 'Alan Kurdi' should be kept." Fortunately, the decision isn't yours to make. <b style="color:#000000;">freshacconci</b> talk to me  04:31, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Burst of unj - There may have been articles about "photos of" in the past, but there are not now. There are pages for Photographs of Abraham Lincoln and Photographs of Charles Darwin but these are fundamentally different, they are redirects to collections of images from the whole lives of those individuals. There is also an article called Photos of Ghosts which is an music album. I do not believe that given this situation "Photographs of Alan Kurdi" is an appropriate title. The point you make about "Migrant Mother" is not correct, as the article about that individual is under the person's real name, Florence Owens Thompson, as it should be. Your "photos of" proposal is interesting but doesn't match the other comparable articles on Wikipedia.-Josephus37 (talk) 05:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If the boy is not notable (but only the reactions to the photographs) then where in the guidelines does it say that the article name should be the same as the person that is not notable. Article names, are for subjects that are notable. All info we already have about Kurdi will fit into other articles - in the event that the closing administrator decides not to rename or not to keep. Burst of unj (talk) 09:14, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't accept your initial claim, that the boy is not notable. To my reading, WP:BASIC doesn't reflect this kind of hair-splitting about him and the photographs of him. I believe the examples I posted above from the Vietnam war photos are the correct approach, where the articles are about the person, not the photo. As for the Afghan Girl article you mention below, personally I would be inclined to have that article under the woman's name (Sharbat Gula/Bibi) than under "Afghan Girl". I think that "Afghan Girl" would have been a fine name for the article when her name was not known and there was no choice but to go by the photograph title. Given that her name is now known, It seems more logical to me that it be under her real name.-Josephus37 (talk) 10:27, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * To my reading of wikipedia guidelines, I can not see where it says that if the reaction to a photo is notable, then the article of the photo should be deleted, and an article about a non-notable drowning of one refugee - among thousands of such deaths - should be created (or kept). No insensitivity intended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Burst of unj (talk • contribs) 10:24, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think the guidelines explicitly address this. And I understand where you are coming from. I simply don't think your idea matches that the common practice on wikipedia, nor are wikipedia's guidelines concerned terribly much with individual recordings of events and people. They are much more focused on the people themselves, and this seems correct to me. Alan Kurdi is a notable person because his death was very widely covered. Yes, this occurred because of the photographs. But the photographs are significant because they show him. The vast majority of votes on this page support this idea, and while I think your idea is interesting, I think it is wrong. There is no need for a page of photos, and that page should be removed and any unique content placed on this one. A discussion can be had about whether this article should be under the name of "Alan Kurdi" or "Death of Alan Kurdi", but I don't see any good reasons, not much support, for the "photograph article" approach.-Josephus37 (talk) 10:34, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Just because several Vietnam War photo articles might have article names (possibly) not rooted in guidelines, does not mean it is a practice - something Afghan Girl might debunk - perhaps there is something else going on, perhaps even sloppiness in following up substandard naming of articles X, Z and Y. In the case of Migrant Mother, the discussion of renaming stalled a few years ago after some had commented (and fewer than I have fingers on one hand)? Burst of unj (talk) 11:07, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. I think the Vietnam war articles reflect the guidelines, and that your photo idea doesn't. The naming of the other articles is logical, and the Afghan Girl article is the odd one out and should probably be changed. I'm afraid that your continued focus on the photo as opposed to the person simply doesn't make sense to me. I appreciate that you went to the trouble to make an article focusing on the photos and no one likes to see their work devalued or deleted, but I think you are simply on the wrong track here.-Josephus37 (talk) 12:17, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There are differing views on whether the Vietnam war photo articles reflect the guidelines. There are differing views on whether the Afghan Girl article reflect the guidelines. And what "no one likes", is experiencing attempts at having vicarious motives attached at one self; motives insinuated along the lines of "I think that you are being difficult because you don't like people tampering with the article you started, so therefore you ...". Perhaps nobody here is an expert about what "no one likes". Burst of unj (talk) 13:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There is a serious issue with <b style="color:#000000;">freshacconci</b>. that user is even censuring the talk page of Aylan Kurdi. As knonw from the WSJ and other media one of the main reasons were the fathers dental problems. The user <b style="color:#000000;">freshacconci</b> even refuses that the topic wound be discussed an is treathening on my user page. I have never ever seen this kind of behavior on wiki. 94.111.123.111 (talk) 23:01, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This isn't a place for article-relevant disputes (and your edits there are not exactly constructive).  Volunteer Marek   23:09, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment - In the case of the (iconic?) photo Afghan Girl, wikipedia got things right. The result (until something eventually might change) being, an article about the photo was created. Info about the biography of the girl/woman has been added to the article about the portrait. Where does the name of the female redirect to? Burst of unj (talk) 09:37, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge and Redirect to either the article on the photograph, or on the photographer. The boy himself was not notable, and his death is not notable. What is notable is the coverage.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:33, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Death of Alan Kurdi, which is an event having world political impact beyond the biography of a small child and incident of his death. Clear GNG pass. Carrite (talk) 13:20, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * These photographs, unlike photos of other non-notable refugees, received a notable reaction. Each other death has no article, and there might not be any guideline that says that cases such as his death should have an article. Burst of unj (talk) 14:20, 10 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Move to Death of Alan Kurdi. Two parallels that occurred to me are Afghan Girl, which is treated as an article about a photograph, and Phan Thi Kim Phuc, which is treated as an article about a person. In the latter case, however, there is notable information about the person's later life, which is not possible in the case of Alan Kurdi. Here, it seems to me, WP:BIO1E is the relevant guideline, and it's the event rather than the person that is notable—if either is. (Oh, and delete Photographs of Alan Kurdi as unnecessary duplication.) Deor (talk) 14:05, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, in the case of Afghan Girl article "there is notable information about the person's later life, which is not possible in the case of Alan Kurdi". (Oh, and the  Photographs of Alan Kurdi is not a duplication; the deletion discussion there will be revieved on its own merit by its closing administrator.) Burst of unj (talk) 14:27, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The article is clearly a duplication as it is not necessary to have very similar information in two separate articles. As for the two articles mentioned by Deor both of the articles have information about later life, although arguably Phan Thi Kim Phuc is more notable than Afghan Girl (Sharbat Gula/Bibi) as Kim Phuc has been involved in public activism for many years. The Afghan Girl article should probably be renamed. As for this article either keeping the Alan Kurdi name or moving it to Death of Alan Kurdi both seem fine to me. Any addition information from Photographs of Alan Kurdi could be merged with this article before it is deleted.-Josephus37 (talk) 14:39, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The closing administrator will decide the fate of Photographs of Alan Kurdi. The guidelines are not clear about articles like Afghan Girl and the Vietnam War photos. Burst of unj (talk) 14:59, 10 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Merge to European migrant crisis. Yet another case where WP:NODEADLINE is ignored and we can't wait to cover a recent event without waiting to see whether it becomes an encyclopedic subject on its own or peters away. Sad as it is, coverage is already diminishing rapidly, pointing to the latter. I hate to say it, but that poor little boy does not meet our inclusion criteria for a stand-alone biography and his tragic and unnecessary death is one of tens-of-thousands in the last few years. --Randykitty (talk) 14:44, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Really? A large part of the article relates to the Kurdi family's attempts to get to Canada, which was outside Europe the last time I checked.  They were trying to get there as refugees, not migrants.  Because that is what they were.  Have you been to Kobane lately, where they had lived?  Neither have I, but I know that there is not much left.  The photographs and story have affected the whole world.  Australia has changed its refugee policy as a result, for example.  In any case, the refugees (not migrants) come from Syria, which is outside Europe.   The Alan Kurdi story has affected refugee policy worldwide and as such it can never be a nothing story.  Ever.  Boscaswell (talk) 19:29, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And, might I add quickly, it has become an election issue in Canada. When I have time I can expand, if necessary, information about that, but it is definitely ongoing as a story in Canada. Aside from that, I disagree with the notion that the story is fading away. As a topic, it is independent of the migrant crisis. It may not be in the headlines but nevertheless it's beyond any notion of "one event". <b style="color:#000000;">freshacconci</b> talk to me  23:00, 10 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment - The German page seems to have ended its deletion discussion. There it is now "Alan Kurdi". Burst of unj (talk) 15:14, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As I said earlier, "There is a good chance that the two websites will not make two similar decisions - and that should not be a problem." Maybe the Norwegian page will step in line and change the name of their article, from "Photographs of-". Burst of unj (talk) 15:21, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Absolutely irrelevant: different wikis have different rules and operate independently. --Randykitty (talk) 15:22, 10 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Strong keep and move to Death of Alan Kurdi. The event is clearly notable, and any biographical information can be handled there. ~ RobTalk 15:44, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - per WP:GNG. and move to Death of Alan Kurdi.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:08, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep and Move to Death of Alan Kurdi, as noted above the event had some large political impact and passes multiple (if not every) criteria of WP:EVENT. Cavarrone 20:02, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep and Rename to Death of Alan Kurdi per WP:1E.--Staberinde (talk) 20:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep move to Death of Alan Kurdi if that name is a better title. Seems to be an easy WP:EVENT pass. --   R45    talk! 00:11, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong keep (here or at Death of Alan Kurdi), per R45 and many others above; hope the closing admin will note attempts by new editor Burst of unj to derail discussion by haranguing opposers.  Mini  apolis  00:30, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - "hope the closing admin will note attempts by new editor Burst of unj to" point out errors and inconsistensies. Burst of unj (talk) 12:16, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's really not what you've been doing. Responding to almost every comment for keep is annoying. Constantly making the same points over and over again is annoying. Referring to other Wikipedias (German, Norwegian) is annoying and irrelevant. "Haranguing" is a good word for your actions at the two Alan Kurdi ADFs. <b style="color:#000000;">freshacconci</b> talk to me  13:01, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Pointing out inconsistencies and errors to a point that annoys you and a number of otheres. If I missed something can that be continued at the discussion I started at User talk:Freshacconci. Burst of unj (talk) 14:05, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I have moved the merge discussion at Talk:Alan Kurdi here to try and prevent the discussion from being fragmented. — <span style="color: #194D00; font-family: Palatino, Times, serif">Mr. Stradivarius  ♪ talk ♪ 05:41, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Strong Delete The death is not noteworthy aside from media interest and SIG promotion of it. At least 2,600 people have already drowned illegally trying to reach Europe. The death of one more child, while unquestionably a tragedy, is merely another statistic. The media interest in the event and SIG pressure should be noted in European migrant crisis but no page created for it. Wikipedia is not a biography for every human that has, is, or will live on this planet. 人族 (talk) 07:17, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You've just made a pretty strong argument for keeping the article; the media interest. What is "SIG"?  Volunteer Marek   07:35, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The user also made contributions to the article, so a strong delete vote is confusion. --   R45    talk! 11:55, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The arguments for the Strong Delete vote "just made a pretty strong argument for keeping the" text - in another article. --Burst of unj (talk) 12:00, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Redirect and Merge Relevant biographical details to Photographs of Alan Kurdi and possibly some to European Migrant Crisis. The photographs and events around them are notable. Alan himself is only notable insofar as he relates to those events. SPACKlick (talk) 10:12, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - Now the article has a section called "Allegations against Abdullah Kurdi". Is the article about 2015 Boat accident off Bodrum with arrests and 12-passenger  5-meter boat? Burst of unj (talk) 10:30, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment Burst of unj has made a phenomenal number of edits to the article in the past 7 or 8 days. Yet he wants to delete the article.  Illogical, captain. Boscaswell (talk) 15:11, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * At least one administrator, User:Randykitty, wants the article deleted, I mean merged. If I had not helped develop the article, I would not see a need for a separate section for "Reactions to the 2015 Boating accident off Bodrum". Boscaswell, please send me Linus' blanket/rag/cloth/sheet/towel, so I have appropriate tools for sitting down and sulking. "When seagulls following the fishing boat bla-bla (...) Eric Cantona." Burst of unj (talk) 15:27, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There are now 24 Keep's and 5 Delete's Burst of unj - This has gone on long enough!!! With what you must admit is an overwhelming consensus is it not time that you did the decent thing by Wikipedia and withdrew your proposal to delete the article? Boscaswell (talk) 16:29, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: Please have a look at WP:NOTAVOTE. Your highly emotionally charged arguing here is a good illustration of why we should not create articles for events that just happened (WP:NOTNEWS). As for Burst of unj editing the article while !voting "delete": I often edit articles that I take to AfD or PROD, so that they at least look decent for the time that they are up and, of course, in case the community disagrees with me about deleting. I realize that no admin is going to burn their fingers by deleting this article, but I do predict (and I think my crystal ball is better than usual) that nobody will edit this article any more as little as one month from now. That's sad, but it's the reality. When the "Occupy" movement was in full swing, all kinds of articles were created for all kinds of minor Occupy-related events and people would come with exactly the same arguments that are being brought forward here. Now, of course, those articles still sit around, because they were kept in the excitement of the day, the Occupy wikiproject is moribund, and nobody even bothers taking those articles to AfD any more. In time, the same will happen with poor little Alan. --Randykitty (talk) 16:44, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Everyone knows this is not a vote, but this is a clear case of a snowball keep: an overwhelming majority of experienced editors have !voted keep citing policy. Consensus is pretty clear. And WP:CRYSTAL very much applies in both directions: obviously we don't know what will happen in a month or a year but there are plenty of sources right now to satisfy WP:GNG. And so this article will sit here untouched in a month? So do many articles. I'm not aware of a guideline that says that's a reason to delete. I'm sure there's plenty of math-related articles that are never edited and never read. That's not the point. We have sources, notability is established and therefore the article should stand. Burst of unj at this point is just playing games and making this discussion about him. No idea what his motives are and I don't care but there's been a great deal of bad faith editing on his part. <b style="color:#000000;">freshacconci</b> talk to me  16:54, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.