Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Albanian–Greek Border War


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:25, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Albanian–Greek Border War

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

This article is a POV and OR coatrack. This supposed war is nothing more than sporadic border clashes during the Operation Pyrsos (2-27 August) of the Greek government troops against the communist guerrillas in the Grammos-Vitsi area. The objective of that operation was to destroy the Greek guerrillas and push them back into Albania, from where they received support.

There were some border crossings by battalion-level Greek units that led to clashes, but the article is written as if Greece invaded Albania deliberately ("Albania regains all lost territories", listing the full strength of the Greek army, supported by the US/UK, as if directed against Albania, the choice of titles like 'Border War' or 'First Battles' implying a sustained conflict etc.). In fact, the article fails to heed its own sources: Mourelos 2007 explicitly calls the 'Battle of Vidohovë' an "episode". It is also telling that the rest of the quote from the same source is omitted: "Ύστερα από αψιμαχίες με αλβανικές ένοπλες δυνάμεις, οι Έλληνες στρατιώτες υποχώρησαν χωρίς να πάρει μεγαλύτερες διαστάσεις το επεισόδιο , το οποίο , ωστόσο , θορύβησε τα Τίρανα. Για τον λόγο αυτό , η αλβανική κυβέρνηση με αλλεπάλληλα διαβήματα προς τον γενικό γραμματέα του ΟΗΕ, Τρίγκβε Λι, διαμαρτυρήθηκε έντονα για τις « ελληνικές προκλήσεις » στην ελληνοαλβανική μεθόριο." ("After skirmishes with Albanian forces, the Greek soldiers retreated without the episode taking on greater proportions, however it alarmed Tirana. For this reason, the Albanian government, with repeated demarches to the UN General Secretary, protested about the 'Greek provocations' on the Greco-Albanian border"). It is equally telling that even a communist-era source (#1) explicitly calls them "des provocations monarcho-fascistes de 1949", i.e. not a war.

Two out of three sources (Mara 1963 and Konferenca Kombëtare e Studimeve Shoqërore 1970) used to cite that Greece was backed by the US and UK and had a "clear war plan" are communist-era publications which I cannot verify, but are inherently not RS. The only RS cited here is Studies in the history of the Greek Civil War, 1945-1949, but without author, chapter, or page. I have the book, and looked up every mention of Albania, and found nothing. So one count of apparent source falsification as well. Constantine  ✍  13:50, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Military, Albania,  and Greece.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 14:00, 31 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Can't find any other references to this war as a real thing outside of Pyrsos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gugrak (talk • contribs) 13:54, 31 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Dear members of the discussion panel,
 * Today, I would like to propose the deletion of the article "Albanian-Greek Border" for debate. Although I advocate for keeping both articles, I would like to discuss the reasons for the deletion first.
 * One argument for deleting this article could be that they may not be relevant enough to be listed in an encyclopedia like this. Some might argue that the events in question are local conflicts that do not hold significant historical importance.
 * Another argument could be that the information in these articles may not be sufficiently verified. Particularly when sources from the communist era are used, their credibility could be called into question. There is a possibility that these sources are politically motivated or biased.
 * However, I would like to emphasize that I personally believe this article should not be deleted. First of all, Me and Based.Shqiptar.from pirok have utilized many sources to create these article, including those from the communist era. I believe this allows for a balanced portrayal of the events.
 * Furthermore, many of these documents have been released by the Albanian government itself, which considers the border war a historical fact. This demonstrates that the topic remains relevant today and holds some historical significance.
 * Additionally, Operation Pyrsos was a military operation by the National Army against the communist Greek rebels. This aspect should not be disregarded, as it contributes to a broader understanding of the political and military history of the region.
 * In conclusion, I propose that we retain the article "Albanian-Greek Border". However, we can make additional efforts to verify the sources and ensure the information presented is balanced and reliable. This will help keep these articles informative and relevant to readers.
 * I look forward to hearing your opinions on this matter and encourage an open and constructive discussion.
 * Thank you. NormalguyfromUK (talk) 14:14, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The article, by its very title, alleges a full-on war between Albania and Greece, and a deliberate Greek invasion with the aim of conquering parts of Albania that was defeated. That is the topic as defined by you as one of the article authors. I see no sources that support it (even the communist government from what I can tell talked of 'provocations', nothing more), quite the contrary, I see source cherrypicking and falsification to support extraordinary claims. Minor cross-border incidents that were part of Operation Pyrsos should be covered there; anything else is an invented topic and should be deleted. Constantine  ✍  15:18, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Why invented topic? Many of the documentaries that exist in Albanian say themselves that it was a successful victory for the Albanian people's army. The only goal of you is to delete the article and make it appear as if this event never happened.These provocations took place and were even considered as a war by Albanian professors such as Bernad Zotaj. NormalguyfromUK (talk) 15:32, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/56913691) how is it an invented topic, when Albania literally alleged Greece of anm invasion of its territory? Albania even went to the United Nations because of these events. GermanManFromFrankfurt (talk) 19:47, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * User:NormalguyfromUK, Bernard Zotaj claimed in a newspaper article without references, that there was a full-scale invasion, with Greece supposedly mobilizing against Albania 70,000 troops, 50 airplanes, 80 tanks, and 400 artilleries (mostly cannons). This is simply fringe; there was no such full-scale invasion. Regardless of that, extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources.
 * User:GermanManFromFrankfurt, this is a primary source from 12 August 1949, that actually refers to an Albanian radio report from 10 August, which talked about an alleged invasion; in the same article we read that this was dismissed by Greece's Ministry for War as "fantastic" (fictitious), while Greek circles in London said that the allegation had no credence and that the only fighting that was taking place was near the Albanian border, as a result of the ongoing Greek Civil War between the Greek government troops and the Greek communists, in what is commonly known as Operation Pyrsos. During the same time we have the United Nations dismissing these Albanian allegations. From International Conflicts, 1816-2010: Militarized Interstate Dispute Narratives – Volume 1 (2018) by Douglas M. Gibler:
 * p. 329: In August 1949 Albania claimed that Greek forces were invading the southern part of the country in an attempt to gain territory. The United Nations dismissed the allegation, citing Greece's efforts to fight the Communist rebels in the face of Albania's over support for the insurgency. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:02, 1 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete if the book mentioned above doesn't have any mention of this war/battle and is the only RS, we'd have to delete it. I can't find any mentions in GScholar, Jstor or the New York Times. Oaktree b (talk) 19:38, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Article is sourced and I see no reason to delete it. The argument that this War was nothing more than a border-clash during Operation Pyrsos also doesn't make sense, since there were several battles fought between the Albanian and Greek Army and the clashes went on for several days as the Greek Army invaded Albanian territory.(https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/56913691) GermanManFromFrankfurt (talk) 21:43, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Greek government troops pursued the retreating Greek communist guerrillas a few kilometres beyond the Greek-Albanian border and clashed sporadically with Albanian border patrols; this is already mentioned in Operation Pyrsos. Furthermore, as explained above, what you shared is a primary source from 12 August 1949, that actually refers to an Albanian radio report from 10 August, which talked about an alleged invasion; in the same article we read that this was dismissed by Greece's Ministry for War as "fantastic" (fictitious), while Greek circles in London said that the allegation had no credence and that the only fighting that was taking place was near the Albanian border, as a result of the ongoing Greek Civil War between the Greek government troops and the Greek communists, in what is commonly known as Operation Pyrsos. During the same time we have the United Nations dismissing these Albanian allegations. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:11, 1 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep In the final report of the UNSCOB, at the 4th session of the UN Assembly on the 23rd of September 1949, the commission wrote that “...Greek soldiers have violated the Albanian border by crossing into Albanian territory…” and saying this was just a part of Operation Pyrsos is dumb because the Operation ended couple of days before the start of September While the border war was still going on up until athe middle of September. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk • contribs) 20:06, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It's even a fact that the Greek National Army invaded on August 2 1949 the Billisht area which was confirmed by the United Nations ...on 2 August 1949, troops of the Athens Government had invaded Albanian territory in the Bilishte district ... NormalguyfromUK (talk) 21:06, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * And the provocations of August 1949 as described were not events but real military attacks against Albania. NormalguyfromUK (talk) 22:11, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a violation of WP:SYNTHESIS; the United Nations never claimed anything of the sort. The quote shared above by User:NormalguyfromUK is from a report published on 2 November 1949 by the UNSCOB (United Nations Special Committee on the Balkans), describing the positions of an Albanian delegate (Mr. Prifti to be more precise); it was part of a general discussion concerning "threats to the political independence and territorial integrity of Greece", in the 307th meeting . The United Nations didn't adopt this position. Furthermore, i couldn't find the quote shared by User:Based.shqiptar.frompirok; please provide a link to the purported source. Google Books doesn't give me any results, and even if there was such a report, it couldn't be the final one (as claimed above), since we have many more after 23 September 1949 (including the aforementioned one, from 2 November 1949). In fact, UNSCOB lasted until December 1951. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:47, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting as I can't even see a consensus among participants that this war occurred, much less whether or not this article is a fair and sourced description of it. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 00:45, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete as per nom. This is a WP:POVFORK of Operation Pyrsos, describing events from the point of view of communist Albania. In both cases, the operation began on 2 August 1949, and lasted for about a month, in the very same broader region of Gramos. Furthermore, the reason that the official Albanian narrative of the time didn't mention any Greek communists, probably has to do with the fact that their presence and activity on Albanian territory, as well as the support that they received from the Albanian state, was all part of a secret operation known as Aksioni 10. So, of course they would not admit that the Greek government forces were primarily fighting Greek communists; on both sides of the Greek-Albanian border. Last, even the image that is being used in the article is misleading. It claims to show Albanian border troops during the so-called war we are discussing; however, this photograph shows Albanian guards at the border with Yugoslavia (not Greece), on 19 January 1967 (about 18 years later). The image was actually taken from Getty Images, and constitutes a copyright violation; it has been nominated for speedy deletion. Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:46, 1 June 2023 (UTC) Edit: I forgot to mention that a similar article was created about a year ago, and it was decided to merge with Operation Pyrsos (here). This new attempt takes it a step further, and alleges a full-scale invasion or full-scale war between Greece and Albania, when even the POV of Communist Albania described these incidents as provocations; while modern reliable secondary sources, as skirmishes that were directly associated with Operation Pyrsos. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:28, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It says there itself that it is disputed so it can also be from the Greek border, which the Albanian articles say, for example NormalguyfromUK (talk) 05:14, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Why are you trying to mislead your fellow editors, again? The caption of the original photograph is the following:
 * Albania: Border Patrol. Members of the Albanian Army plus a dog keep a strict watch at the border. This is the area which borders on Yugoslavia which is still in dispute. – 19 January, 1967
 * This is clearly referring to a disputed border between Yugoslavia and Albania, not a disputed location. Furthermore, the article you shared doesn't include any information about the photograph, nor does it say that these are troops during the Battle of Vidohovë (1949); in fact, it is located under a section that talks about provocations in general (including Yugoslavian provocations). But besides all these, aren't you forgetting that the photograph was taken on 19 January 1967, or approximately 18 years after the purported incident, and therefore cannot be related? Anyway, the image was deleted, as it constituted a copyright violation. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:02, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * But the pictures weren't from Getty Images, but whatever. In any case, because of the Albanian-Greek border war, there was a wealth of information, reports and discussions surrounding the topic. Articles were also written from a Soviet point of view, which were intended to contribute to the discussion and the exchange of information. This document is an archive of the foreign policy of the Russian Federation. And here is an article from 1949, which was published in the Soviet Union. This article comes from the Trud publishing house. Its reported in the article и явно направляемая из одного центра война нервов, сопровождающаяся прямыми военными действиями против албанских по- граничных районо в (Russian) days of August, against Albania from the north and from the south, a systematic and clearly directed from one center war of nerves is being waged, accompanied by direct military operations against the Albanian border regions (English). NormalguyfromUK (talk) 23:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Both of these are communist-era sources. The first one is a primary source; the diary of Dmitry Chuvakhin, summarizing a conversation he had with the leader of Communist Albania Enver Hoxha, on 2 August 1949. This is certainly not the Soviet point of view, nor did Chuvakhin himself adopt the views of Hoxha. What is telling however, is that according to Hoxha himself, the goal of the Greek government troops by crossing the Greek-Albanian border, was to go behind the lines of the Greek communist guerillas and attack them from the rear; they did this as they were moving along the Greek-Albanian border. In contrast to your narrative, Hoxha didn't view this as a full-scale invasion or a war, but as a provocation, directly associated with the Greek Civil War.
 * Энвер Ходжа считает, что цель этой новой провокации греческих монархо-фашистов старая, т.е. пересечь албанскую территорию и зайти в тыл греческим демократам. Об этом, как он заметил, свидетельствует развитие происходящего сейчас боя – греки не идут в глубь албанской территории, а с боем продвигаются вдоль албано-греческой границы на албанской стороне с тем, чтобы, дойдя до определенного пункта на границе, повернуть на греческую территорию и бить греческих демократов с тыла. [Enver Hoxha believes that the goal of this new provocation of the Greek monarcho-fascists is old, i.e. cross into Albanian territory, and go behind the lines of the Greek democrats. This, as he noted, is evidenced by the development of the ongoing battle [Operation Pyrsos] – the Greeks do not go deep into the Albanian territory, but move along the Greek-Albanian border on the Albanian side, so that, having reached a certain point on the border, turn back to Greek territory and attack the Greek democrats from the rear.]
 * The second source is an article written by a journalist named Lev Sedin (Лев Седин), and published in the Russian weekly magazine Новое Время; probably in September 1949, as it is from the 37th issue of that year. You cannot claim that this is the Soviet point of view either. First of all, this is not an official Soviet document, and second we do not even know whether the author describes the position of Communist Albania, or his own; this is an incomplete quote. Last, neither of these are scholarly sources, and are in fact quite old. Demetrios1993 (talk) 04:21, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * You know that Enver Hoxha said in the document that they were attacked militarily by the Greeks and also in the document there is no mention of Operation Pyrsos but only of the provocations of 1949. And I wasn't concerned that the article was old or anything else but I also wanted to show it from other perspectivesy. In addition to this, the document clearly described and the struggle of Vidohovë. What you can read there yourself. Энвер Ходжа сообщил, что 2 августа в 5 час. утра греческие монархо-фашисты силами до двух батальонов вторглись на албанскую территорию в р-не Видохово (юго-восточнее Корчи). Албанские пограничники оказали монархо-фашистам упорное сопротивление. В результате этой провокации по данным на 11 часов греческие монархо-фашисты потеряли убитыми до 100 человек и свыше 100 человек ранеными. Потери с албанской стороны по непроверенным данным: 1 человек убит и 2-е раненых. Пока сопротивление монархо-фашистам оказывает только пограничная охрана, а регулярные части албанской армии в бой не втянуты.And also here it was clearly described by the academician Luan Omari that the provocations of 1949 came to a real military attack. NormalguyfromUK (talk) 08:15, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * "Attacked militarily" is not the same as full-scale invasion and full-sale war, like the discussed article alleges. Furthermore, i didn't claim that Operation Pyrsos is mentioned verbatim in the document; hence why i included it in square brackets, which are used to indicate editorial replacements and insertions within quotations, that are meant to clarify certain points of the original quote, reduce the size of a quotation, or simply for grammatical purposes; per MOS:PMC and MOS:BRACKET. In this case, it meant to clarify Hoxha's description of battles between the so-called "Greek monarcho-fascists" and "Greek democrats", which is commonly known as Operation Pyrsos. Hoxha doesn't speak of a full-scale invasion or war, but of provocations (per the POV of Communist Albania), and even the figures he gives for the incident of Vidohovë, are unverified according to Chuvakhin himself.
 * Omari (1988) is likewise a communist-era source, and thus inherently unreliable. But regardless of that, even he describes these as provocations, that were directly associated with the Greek Civil War (Operation Pyrsos):
 * On August 2, incited and supported by the American imperialists, the Greek monarcho-fascists launched their offensive against the Greek Democratic Army (GDA) which was fighting for freedom and the establishment of democracy in Greece. On the same day, they carried out an open military attack against the PR of Albania.... The provocation on 2 August was a continuation of the previous provocations, but on a more extensive scale and the prologue to a series of planned combined grave provocations, which continued throughout the first half of August
 * These attacks were in reality skirmishes that were directly associated with Operation Pyrsos. As we read in the The Greek Civil War: Strategy, Counterinsurgency and the Monarchy (2017) by academic Spyridon Plakoudas; a recent reliable secondary source:
 * Operation Torch [alternative name of Operation Pyrsos] unfolded in three phases: in the first phase, the ΕΣ staged a diversionary attack on Grammos and, thereafter, stormed the undermanned fortifications on Vitsi; in the second phase, an overpowering attack captured the forts on Grammos; in the final phase, the ΕΣ pursued the remnants of the ΔΣΕ – even within Albania. Having secured the northern Yugoslav front, Greece wanted to invade Albania and kill two birds with one stone: annex northern Epirus and wipe out the ΔΣΕ. Despite its appeals to the Anglo-Americans for concerted military action, Washington and London prohibited an assault and the ΕΣ only pursued the retreating units of the ΔΣΕ within a few kilometers beyond the border and clashed sporadically with the Albanian border patrols.
 * This last book, has been praised in peer-reviews; such as the ones by and . Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:14, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * FWIW I did check the Giorgos Margaritis' work on the Greek Civil War, generally acknowledged to be the most comprehensive scholarly treatment of the topic. The 'invasion' of 2 August is identified as a flanking manoeuver by a single company, in order to avoid the extensive minefields that the communists had laid. The operation was intended to capture Height 1425 or Chelona, which was inside Greece. Nothing here about intending to occupy Albanian territory. Constantine  ✍  12:29, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep this article refers to when the albanian and greek army actually faced off in a conflict, not just that the Albanians supported communist Greek forces as in operation Pyrsos. therefor it should have its own article, there are definitely sources on this event and it did happen.Durraz0 (talk) 15:13, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The discussed article alleges a full-scale invasion or full-scale war, that even goes against the POV of Communist Albania which viewed these incidents as provocations; while modern reliable secondary sources view them as skirmishes that were directly associated with Operation Pyrsos. Operation Pyrsos doesn't only talk about the support Communist Albania provided to the Greek guerillas, but also about the aforementioned skirmishes between the Greek government troops and the Albanian border patrols. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:21, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep think that the article should stay because there were many sources where it was not only assumed but also confirmed that there was a military attack not only from the Albanians but also from other perspectivesEdison18273 (talk) 18:52, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete – I have been closely following the discussion and I have not seen serious arguments to retain this article. A lot of it amounts to whether it happened or not. No reliable sources were presented and almost all of the current sources present the alleged event from an Albanian POV, which is not really per NPOV. StephenMacky1 (talk) 19:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete. RS don't support the claim that such a "war" occurred. ǁ ǁǁ ǁ Chalk19 (talk) 14:36, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:POVFORK and WP:COATRACK. Khirurg (talk) 18:32, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete. While the article is on the surface reasonably sourced and not a stub, I don't see why this can't be part of Operation Pyrsos in which it takes place. The "Albanian–Greek Border War" is a fabricated naming from what I can see. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 02:33, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete: This looks like a WP:POVFORK. CastJared (talk) 10:53, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete, Sources don't support such a war . This is WP:POVFORK. Alex-h (talk) 13:12, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete a WP:POVFORK. The person who loves reading (talk) 15:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete this is a WP:POVFORK Karnataka (talk) 18:31, 14 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.