Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Albert Gauthier


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect‎ __EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__ to Albert Gautier Vignal. The history is there if anything needs merging, but that does not appear to be the case Star   Mississippi  01:32, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Albert Gauthier

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Doesn't meet WP:NOLYMPICS and a WP:BEFORE didn't produce much more. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 19:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Olympics,  and France. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 19:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Fencing at the 1900 Summer Olympics – Men's foil and maybe include a note that he officiated at the epee event. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:00, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Wow, keep per Kingsif. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:07, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I guess redirect to the new article, though shouldn't that one mention that he competed at the 1900 Olympics? BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:35, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Fencing at the 1900 Summer Olympics – Men's foil, I couldn't find enough with a WP:BEFORE search to show notability. Suonii180 (talk) 06:35, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. Okay, I'm not entirely convinced that this isn't the same person as the comte Albert Gaut(h)ier Vignal, who was president of the International Fencing Federation and would later be the Monegasque Olympic Committee representative. The fact we don't have an article on him, who I think would be undoubtedly notable (especially being friends with Baron de Coubertin and part of the early modern Olympic movement), is making me wonder even more if they might be the same person. And one source I found in searching mentions Gauthier as the Cote d'Azur fencing federarion president, something which Olympedia attributes to Gauthier Vignal. In any case, that search was just for "albert gauthier escrime" (there's also a politician of the same name) and it brings up quite a few results in French, though a lot are of old newspaper scans uploaded to file-sharing site of dubious safety. At least one seems to be in-depth just from what is available in a preview – a library search may be needed but it seems that he is notable. Of course, determining if the two French fencers of the same era with the same name and the same job are the same person will need to happen first. Kingsif (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Adding, here at Google Books is the 1894 source linking (just) Gauthier with the various positions. Based on how it talks about him and his promotion of the sport, and the potential he was Coubertin's friend (looking likelier having read that full source), it is possible this person is the reason that fencing is in the Olympics. It's going to need more examination, but hard to say such a person isn't NOLYMPICS... Kingsif (talk) 22:35, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This source (archive collection, Google Books) mentions that (translated from French) Fencing is one of those noble sports which allow the occasion to defend a threatened honor and duels are frequent, the practice of the "jury of honor" aiming to avoid duels by negotiation is fiercely discussed and refused by the more ardent. The most notorious of weapons rooms was that of Albert Gauthier, brother-in-law of the prefect [Léon-Paul] Lagrange de Langre. – it does seem he was preeminent. Kingsif (talk) 22:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * My comments are a bit train-of-thought, so I'll piece it together. The 1894 report seen here mentions that M. Albert Gauthier (note no comte, and the single surname*) 1. has a villa in Nice, 2. fences with Coste, their esteemed captain. This appears to be Émile Coste, who won gold in the foil at the 1900 Olympics for France (the same event), so it seems safe to say the source is talking about the man who would be the Olympic fencer, based on his teammate. The villa in Nice, and being a great sponsor of the sport hosting events there, connects the man to the comte, who did the same. *The French government notes (among many things) that Albert Gautier Vignal added the "Vignal" himself at some point, from the name of a castle he owned in Contes. He received the title comte from the Pope in 1895.* Based on the 1894 source's details, I think the two are the same, and there are copious sources on the comte. Kingsif (talk) 01:43, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * My very dears here is the article on Albert, Comte Gautier-Vignal at Olympedia, the two seem to be different people for Olympedia, could they also be this for wikipedia? Paradise Chronicle (talk) 02:22, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Olympedia isn't perfect, and if they're taking competition information from 1900 and then officials information from 1908-1930s, if a slightly different name is written they might not have considered the possibility. Of course, I already looked at Olympedia, and the photo for just Albert depicts the same person as Monaco fencing's website on the comte. I didn't want to use photographic evidence in my spiel, but if it helps convince you against Olympedia having two profiles... If the people database collecting for Olympedia don't chat about finding people with similar names, I won't hold it against them. (And the source I believe Olympedia use doesn't even give a first name for the Gauthier in the fencing...) Kingsif (talk) 02:45, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, good. I can follow your rationale, but if there exist two Olympedia articles for the same person, that's an interesting precedent for the articles that are only sourced to Olympedia. Then also I prefer that the credit (such as the notifications like for DYK or AfD) go to someone who also deserves (is interested in the subject) it, and I'd say Kingsif does deserve it.  Could you create an article (also a stub) with the the correct name and we redirect this page to that one?Paradise Chronicle (talk) 08:30, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I can see why there's concern; I have reached out to Olympedia on the matter, just asking their sources. FWIW, there should not be any articles that are only sourced to Olympedia (DATABASE). Ha, I was thinking of proposing that myself - an article for Gautier Vignal with this name as a redirect - nice that we had the same idea! For the purposes of the AfD continuing, as you suggest, I'll make it as a stub for now. Kingsif (talk) 20:42, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * See: Albert Gautier Vignal. Kingsif (talk) 21:02, 25 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Albert Gautier Vignal per the discoveries from Kingif.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:37, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Albert Gautier Vignal per above.  // Timothy :: talk  14:06, 29 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.