Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander George Arbuthnot (British army officer)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was It would appear after reviewing the arguments presented, consensus is Delete. Navou 02:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Alexander George Arbuthnot (British army officer)

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A fairly standard British officer who got a few medals- considering we don't even know when he died he can't really have been that notable. Delete Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 15:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I have now actually found his death- he died May 3, 1961 (aged 86) described as "colonel commandment of the First Division, R.A. from 1924 to 1928. After his retirement in 1929 he was commandment of the N.E. district, Kenya Defence Force, until 1933.". Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 17:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Further Comment Please note he was not a Brigadier General but a Brigadier which was the highest Colonel rank not the lowest General rank. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 19:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Provisional (if I can use that word without being part of the irc) Delete — although it says he was a Brigadier General - who in WWI might well have done something notable - on closer reading it seems he was a Major in WWI and consequently doesn't get the "get out of gaol free" card under WP:MILITARY by virtue of having "commanded a large body of men in combat". Let this one have its full five days (at least), though, since Kittybrewster's currently still serving out a 48 hour block, and he's the one best placed to give possible reasons to keep. The Order of the Star of Karageorge is potentially a "highest military decoration" — as with the Order of Leopold, with which I suspect some of the editors here are somewhat more familiar than they were this time last week, it comes in multiple orders of which only the "Grand Cross" is a highest-military-decoration for WP:N purposes. If it's the highest one, than change to keep as per the discussions ad nauseam last time —  irides centi   (talk to me!)  15:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment From The Times, February 16, 1917, Lt. Col. A.G. Arbuthnot D.S.O., R.A., was awarded the Order of Karageorge, 4th class (with swords) in September/October, 1916 (what looks like a thousand or more people also received various honours from the King of Serbia). Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 17:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep It is unsure when a lot of people died in wars, so moot point, he was awarded an important medal, there is no reason to delete. 82.43.111.162 16:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Actually he didn't die in a war- he was recorded as being an "honorary Game Warden" in Kenya in 1952 and was living there till at least 1955. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 17:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletions.  -- Carom 16:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete unless more information comes to light regarding the possible "save" from the OS Karageorge. The "thousand or more people" referred to above as receiving awards from Serbia may have been receiving considerably lesser awards, making them irrelevant to the comparison, or similar awards, making the award itself less notable. I'd like to know more on that one. Otherwise, it's a referenced article about a chap I'm very grateful to for his service, but still not sufficiently notable unless we change our notability policy and decide that we want every decorated army officer ever to be considered notable. – Kieran T  (' talk ') 17:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Bearing in mind that this is just info from one lot of awarding (maybe their were others?), three people were awarded Order of Karageorge 2nd class with swords, ten the Order of Karageorge 3rd class with swords, and thirty three the Order of Karageorge 4th class with swords (what Arbuthnot got). Stangely the Order of the White Eagle is listed first in the honours which might seem to indicate it is senior (which would conflict with Wikipedia's information)- lots of senior officers were awarded that. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 17:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment As I read it, the two are equivalent - the White Eagle is for high-ranking officers & the Karageorge for "normal" soldiers and ranks. As with other Arbuthnot articles, it would be a lot easier to decide whether the award was important if there was the slightest hint as to what he won it for —  irides centi   (talk to me!)  17:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I think, from this page that 4th class, which Arbuthnot was awarded, must be the officer class (the higher classes being Commander>Grand Officer>Grand Cross) so he couldn't have got a lower award unless he was a soldier. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 18:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per below Carlossuarez46 19:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC) Weak keep a general officer in the UK military seems notable if RS's can establish that. Carlossuarez46 18:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually he died as a Brigadier not a Brigadier-General which was abolished in 1922 so he was never a general officer. Brigadier was the successor rank to Colonel-Commandment which he held 1925-1928. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 19:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gustav for the clarification and education, changed my weak keep to delete. Carlossuarez46 19:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete: The worst thing about these pages is that they are so bad one could not make it up. " He was an honorary game warden of Kenya" referenced to "Shooting Of Elephants In Kenya". And as for that info-box highlighting for us his equally un-notable relations - words fail me. Delete as fast as possible. Giano 21:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete - Brigadier is an OF-6 (1 star general) rank, and he won the DSO and CMG, so may have done something notable (the latter suggests he was a civil servant of some sort), but there is currently nothing particularly notable here. -- ALoan (Talk) 22:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The Brigadier article states: "from 1922 to 1928 the British rank title used was that of Colonel Commandant which, although reflecting its modern role in the British Army as a senior colonel rather than a junior general, was not well received. Until shortly after the Second World War, it was only an appointment conferred on Colonels (as Commodore was an appointment conferred on naval Captains) and not a substantive rank." Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 22:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Also I don't think he was a civil servant it just says: "After his retirement in 1929 he was commandment of the N.E. district, Kenya Defence Force, until 1933", then as far as we know he spent his time as an honorary game warden in Kenya. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 22:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, had not realised he retired before brigadier acquired its modern meaning. I would not be surprised if commanding part of the Kenya Defence Force, or being an "honorary" (?) game warden counted as a civil service (Colonial Service?) post.  (Oh look, redlinks.  CSB, anyone?) -- ALoan (Talk) 23:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps they might have been, but I imagine honorary game warden was more of an informal thing? Re:the CMG he was awarded it on January 1, 1917 "in connection with military operations in the field"- 6 were made KCMGs, 113 CMGs (mostly Cols., Lt.Cols. and Majors) (11 more from Australia, Canada and NZ, 22 from the India Office). Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 23:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Not notable.--padraig3uk 23:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. I see no evidence of encyclopedic notability. --Hemlock Martinis 01:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep For the role of Kenya Defence Forces and game wardens, see the article on the country--these were quasi-military, sometimes in unpleasant ways; they were typical professions for semi retired military men. and yes, Game Wardens in Kenya at that did shoot elephants. We have to evaluate his career in terms of the period. Regardless of the details, Brigadier was always between Colonel and Major general--there have never been lower ranks of generals in the British army. DGG 05:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge with his father Charles George Arbuthnot. A paragraph on AGA can easily be accommodated at the end of that article. Pharamond 06:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete, no evidence of encyclopedic notability. These straight-arrow bog-standard career officers who panned it out in colonial Africa are a dime a dozen, even a stock character. We don't need articles on all of them. --Dhartung | Talk 10:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge as per Pharamond *Keep, Automatically notable under: The following types of military figures are always notable: Recipients of a country's highest military decoration. The Order of Karageorge was the highest Serbian award at the time Kernel Saunters 12:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It isn't the country's highest military decoration- he received the 4th class officer award- the Grand Cross is the highest award with Grand Officer and Commander under it. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 13:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd say that the award makes him notable - exactly how many British military personnel were awarded this award is what is needed here and at what level? i.e. was he a leading figure in the Balkans campaign? More research needed. Could this become a stub pending further research. Seems a bit over the top to rip this out prior to a good look Kernel Saunters 14:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have already done the research- on the same date as his award was given, three people were awarded Order of Karageorge 2nd class with swords, ten the Order of Karageorge 3rd class with swords, and thirty three the Order of Karageorge 4th class with swords (what Arbuthnot got). A hundred or more high ranking officers got the Order of the White Eagle which was actually listed preceding the Karageorge which might seem to indicate it is senior (which would conflict with Wikipedia's information). Note he got the lowest officer award - the only lower awards are for soldiers -see this page for more information . Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 14:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Were the recipients you list at the same grade British? Kernel Saunters 14:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1 from British Army received 2nd class, 6 received 3rd class, 21 received 4th class, and a thousand or more soldiers got lower awards i.e. the award in itself wasn't unusual and Arbuthnot got the lowest award for an officer. The other numbers were the Indian Army which was really part of the British Army at that time. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 14:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete - a bog-standard career: not notable. HeartofaDog 01:35, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per Giano -Docg 00:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * delete not compelling evidence of notability. Thanks very much to those who put in the time to research and establish this. JoshuaZ 15:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.