Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander Goldscheider


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   speedy keep. Withdrawn by nominator with no outstanding delete !votes. (non-admin closure) Tim Song (talk) 01:07, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Alexander Goldscheider

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

No releases by this subject are notable, there is no significant coverage by any other source, and no other criteria listed at WP:MUS apply here. Alexander Goldscheider and Terezín: The Music 1941-44 (which was produced by the subject) I think can be treated together (so I have redirected the other AfD subpage here). Both articles have been primarily contributed to by User:AGRR, who has self-identified as the subject. Previously, AGRR created a page Goldscheider, Alexander, which has since been speedily deleted per WP:COI and WP:Notability. The user has now been warned twice about his conflict of interest violations. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 22:09, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

However, I just noticed that his company Romantic Robot seems to have produced Wriggler, Videoface, and Multiface, which are all articles that seem to have been around awhile without getting deleted. Does this help his case, or do they need to be nominated as well? I'm not as familiar with computing-type notability guidelines. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 22:22, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  — J04n(talk page) 23:11, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: I just came across these notes, and they definitely need to be corrected:


 * If anybody googles Terezín: The Music 1941-44 there are dozens and dozens of references to this double CD, be it from BBC programs, Simon Wiesenthal Center, conferences, libraries, schools, universities, etc. from around the world. There are many further references under "Theresienstadt: Die Musik 1941-44" and "Terezín: La Musique 1941-44" as this set is known in Germany and France respectively.


 * Similarly, if you google "Brundibár Romantic Robot" there are 2,090 hits with pages and pages of references, and if you Google just "Brundibár", there are 90,500 hits! - hardly anybody at all knew about this children's opera before it was discovered on the above Terezín: The Music 1941-44 CDs. All the artists on the CDs have their Wikipedia articles in several languages, so does the opera Brundibár and again virtually nobody knew Gideon Klein, Pavel Haas, Hans Krása or Viktor Ullmann before these CDs existed.


 * To say that this is not a "notable release with no significant coverage by any other source" is simply incorrect, if not unfair as well. There were over 15,000 of this 2-CD set (i.e. over 30,000 CDs) sold over the years, a significant amount for modern classical music, let alone with the connotations of concentration camps! This set was also supplied to very many libraries around the world and it is still in demand nearly 20 years after its release.


 * Similarly, I cannot see why the Wikipedia articles on Multiface, Wriggler or Videoface should be nominated for deletion simply because they are connected to myself(!), and I rather hope they WILL help my case. I had nothing to do with these articles on Wikipedia, and there are 76,400 hits on "Multiface 1", 98,7000 on "Multiface One", 15,840 on "Multiface Amstrad" and "Multiface 2", 60,900 on "Multiface 3", 11,600 on "Multiface 128", 9,700 on "Multiface ST", then there are 30,700 hits on "Wriggler Spectrum", 10,200 on "Wriggler Amstrad" as well as 3,960 Google hits on "Romantic Robot Wriggler" and finally nearly 5,000 hits  on "Videoface" combined with ZX, Spectrum or Romantic Robot - that is over 320,000 hits for just these three lines of products designed and manufactured by Romantic Robot!


 * Frankly, if anything, I believe there should be an article on Romantic Robot as well, given all above figures. There are actually 25,800 hits on the sentence "Romantic Robot", and over 2,550,000 hits on the words "Romantic" and "Robot", many related to the company, but not all. Thank you. AGRR (talk) 03:41, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

If anybody googles Terezín: The Music 1941-44 there are dozens and dozens of references to this double CD, be it from BBC programs, Simon Wiesenthal Center, conferences, libraries, schools, universities, etc. from around the world. There are many further references under "Theresienstadt: Die Musik 1941-44" and "Terezín: La Musique 1941-44" as this set is known in Germany and France respectively. AGRR (talk) 03:41, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Note The production of art at Terizín, music, theater, etc, is a highly notable subject; I recently say an exhibition on it. I have no idea if this particular CD is notable, but the topic certainly is.  A rename to Music production in Terezín and some c/e could be the ultimate solution, depending on availablity of sources for the CD, to preserve info. Power.corrupts (talk) 15:08, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Regretful delete: Terezín: The Music 1941-44 AGRR, the notability is not based on the number of Google hits. Each article should contain facts verified from multiple, reliable, independent and substantial sources. I would like to help you, but I can't find anything. I recall an old review in Czech magazine Harmonie or Hudební rozhledy, however, I'm not sure if mentioned review described your product. It was a large anthology of compositions by musicians imprisoned in Terezín. I'm also a bit surprised by your statement that virtually nobody knew children's opera Brundibár and "Terezín composers" before your publishing efforts. I can assure you that all mentioned composers are included in major encyclopedic works on Czechoslovak music, such as Československý hudební slovník (published in 1963). I can also recommend you works by Lubomír Peduzzi, who spent a major part of his career researching lives and works of Jewish composers persecuted by Nazis, or more recent research and publications by Milan Kuna. I admire and support your work and I believe it is important contribution to the music history, but I can't support your articles here without reliable and independent sources. --Vejvančický (talk) 15:25, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * @Power.corrupts: Music production in Terezín (or perhaps Culture in Terezín) surely deserves an article here, however, the subject of this AfD is this particular CD: Terezín: The Music 1941-44. --Vejvančický (talk) 15:25, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * @Akrabbim: Perhaps you should split your nomination again, the subjects are too different.--Vejvančický (talk) 16:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Alexander Goldscheider was a first Czech journalist who made an interview with Frank Zappa, one of the pioneers of electronic pop music in Czechoslovakia (this is a blog, but I value their informations, they're surprisingly correct). It seems that he also collaborated with important Czech politician and diplomat Michael Žantovský . The production website of children's opera Brundibár reprinted the sleevenote of his CD Terezín: The Music 1941-44 . However, all of the sources are passing mentions. Unfortunately, I can't find out more. --Vejvančický (talk) 16:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Czech Republic-related deletion discussions.  —Vejvančický (talk) 16:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Computing-related deletion discussions.  This is due to the subject's relevance to the Wriggler, Videoface, and Multiface articles. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 17:00, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: I have created a separate discussion for Terezín: The Music 1941-44. I will make a copy of related comments posted here to that discussion. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 17:15, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: Unfortunately, I can come up with nothing substantial from searching the library databases for "Alexander Goldscheider" or "Romantic Robot" at Syracuse University, where I am currently going to school. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 20:14, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: I am very grateful for the comments of Mr. Vejvančický and perhaps I can add to them and clarify a few points.
 * I was, indeed, the first Czech journalist who interviewed Frank Zappa (published in "My69" and "Melodie"), and I also met and interviewed many others, mainly in 1968-69 when I lived in New York: B.B. King, Jimi Hendrix, Blood Sweat and Tears, Stevie Winwood (Traffic), Keith Emerson (The Nice, Emerson, Lake and Palmer), Paul Butterfield, Mike Bloomfield, Al Kooper, The Family, John Mayall, Ten Years After, Marc Boland and T.Rex, etc. I was for years on the editorial board of "Melodie", which was the most read music magazine in Czech Republic and reportedly in Eastern Europe, there are numerous articles, interviews, reviews that I wrote - if you open any issue of "Melodie" from 1969-1973 or so, you will find me there. I also had my radio series in 1969-70 on Mikrofórum called Mikro-Pop-Abeceda where I succeeded in playing a lot of Anglo-American music that was otherwise near impossible to play on Czech Radio at the time. My series also ended prematurely because of the music I played and insisted on playing.


 * I later wrote songs and produced records at Supraphon and Panton - if you checked the current Supraphon catalogue on the Internet (http://www.supraphon.cz/cs/katalog/databaze-titulu/vysledky-hledani/?hledany_vyraz=Goldscheider&kategorie=-- ), you can still (30 years after I left Czechoslovakia) find my songs on the current CDs of Hana Hegerová, Karel Černoch, Jan Rezek, Jana Robbová, Pavel Bobek, Valerie Čižmárová. I wrote songs for many others, and I also had my own SPs released on Panton Records, including the song you mention, "Mluví k vám robot", with the lyrics by Michael Žantovský, which you can see on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ0DSBZy41U . It is a Czech TV Video from 1979 as the song reached No. 3 on the Hit-Parade. I sing it through a vocoder and play it all on synthesizers (as I did on "Kdekdo Te Pomlouvá" for Valerie Čižmárová, "Hadrová Panenka" on the same named LP of Věra Špinarová, "Lady Madonna" with Eva Pilarová and on my own recordings for Czech Radio and TV, Krátký Film, Barrandov and Supraphon and Panton). I am fairly certain that I was the first to have used a vocoder in Eastern Europe, and I, indeed, used an Arp Odyssey and Roland JP4 before anybody else just as well! Incidentally, is not there a stipulation on Wikipedia that anybody who charted their music is eligible to be included?


 * I also produced LP records of Milan Svoboda's Prague Big Band, Martin Kratochvíl, Eva Pilarová, Naďa Urbánková, Věra Špinarová, Helena Pilarová, Jitka Molavcová - I can provide all the details. I wrote numerous sleevenotes, be it for rock groups as Collegium Musicum, Blue Effect, or LPs of foreign artists such as Deja Vu by Crosby, Stills Nash and Young, Close to the Edge by Yes - I translated the lyrics for both albums as well -, Tamla Motown 2-LP sampler Černá Galaxie - all these are perfectly documented items.


 * You will find an entry on me in Antonín Matzner, Ivan Poledňák, Igor Wasserberger a kolektiv (1990): "Encyklopedie jazzu a moderní populární hudby, Díl II. Editio Supraphon, s. 159" and I also wrote some 250 entries on Anglo-American pop/rock singers and groups for the same Encyclopedia - except, as I was a political emigrant with a 3-year sentence, my name was not allowed to appear under the articles and the late Ivan Poledňák put his name under them.


 * I studied musicology at Charles University where I got a PhD for my analysis of the Beatles' songs - there is a link in this article being discussed for deletion. There were only very few musicological analysis of rock and pop-music in the 70s world-wide, and it was a lot of effort to be allowed to do that in Czechoslovakia in the 70's...


 * As for Terezín and its music, I am familiar with all the literature on the subject and I can assure you that virtually nobody knew Gideon Klein, Hans Krása, Pavel Haas outside of Czech Republic until my Terezín 2-CD set. What a pity that Eliška Kleinová, the sister of Gideon Klein, is no longer with us as she could confirm this better than anybody else: she devoted her entire life to promote the music of her brother and others from Terezín, who all perished, and she herself could not believe when I did produce the CDs and she could hold them in her hands. I am not over dramatising this and a lot of my knowledge and experience is first hand, as my father and uncle took part in the cultural life in Terezín (my father appears on a couple of Terezín posters), where they were imprisoned before being sent to Auschwitz, Schwarzheide, with the rest of the family perishing in Bergen-Belsen and Mauthausen. It is also no surprise for me that you may not find much material about Terezín everywhere (be it my CDs or anything else for that matter), as the topic is still, how shall I phrase it, unpleasant to deal with for many! Two Terezín composers may very well have been mentioned in the essential Československý hudební slovník in 1963 - neither Hans Krása, nor Pavel Ullmann are there at all!! -, but nobody heard their music until 20+ years later! And there were no mentions of them anywhere else in the world, whilst hardly anybody can read Czech.


 * I had enormous difficulties promoting the music myself, but promoting I did and there followed a whole string of products/material by many others on the same topic and, as I said, for instance Brundibár (not ever mentioned in the Československý hudební slovník) is nowadays known all over the world. Of course I realize that Google hits are not a measurement of notability, but frankly I feel an immense joy that there are now over 90,000 hits on Google re Brundibár, and I do take a certain amount of pride that my 2CDs played their part in that achievement. And I am absolutely delighted there are now thousands of people involved. I fully appreciate the efforts and achievements of others. I know Mr. Kuna, whom you mention, personally, he in fact helped me with the information on my double-CD and I credit him right after my thanks to Eliška Kleinová in the booklet accompanying the CDs (avaiable on the Romantic Robot website www.romantic-robot.com). Incidentally, Mr. Kuna's book great and laudable book "Musik an der Grenze des Lebens" was first published by the German publisher Zweitausendeins in October 1993 - after the very same publisher and mail-order company already sold thousands of my "Theresienstadt: Die Musik 1941-44" set since its release in 1991.


 * I do not make any claims whatsoever that I am the only person engaged in this topic, not in the slightest, but my 2CD set was a major breakthrough for the Terezín composers and Eliška Kleinová said that it achieved more than she she was able to do in 45 years. She also summarised the role of music in Terezín in the simplest words as "Music? Music was life!" And it was life, survival, for many, for thousands, tens of thousands - the role of music in many other camps has now been documented as well. And please take a look at the entire article on the 2CD set, the deletion of which we are discussing here. This is ALL it says:


 * "Terezín: The Music 1941-44 is a 2-CD set with music written by the inmates at the Terezín concentration camp during World War II. Vol. 1 contains chamber music by Gideon Klein, Viktor Ullmann and Hans Krása, Vol. 2 features the children opera Brundibár by Hans Krása and songs by Viktor Ullmann and Pavel Haas. The CDs were produced by Alexander Goldscheider and released by Romantic Robot in 1991."


 * Frankly, if these two sentences of pure and most basic factual information are deemed not to be worth their place in Wikipedia, then I rest my case. Already the fact that we are discussing it here shows how difficult it still is to promote the music linked to concentration camps!


 * I do not think it would be fruitful to go on and on here, and I shall be most grateful if you just go through my above lines.

If anybody needs more information I can also be contacted through the Romantic Robot website www.romantic-robot.com, where where it is also possible to get a lot more details on both the Terezín CD set and my other releases. Thank you. AGRR (talk) 01:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Thank you for your clarification. I added citations from the comprehensible Czech source Encyclopedia of Jazz and Modern Popular Music (1990), where Mr. Goldscheider is mentioned. This, together with other claims of notability, is sufficient for an entry here on Wikipedia. --Vejvančický (talk) 15:05, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Agree, inclusion in another encyclopedia is a clear pass for WP:N. I assume it is Encyklopedie jazzu a moderní populární hudby. [Díl] III, Část jmenná. Československá scéna - osobnosti a soubory / Antonín Matzner, Ivan Poledňák, Igor Wasserberger. Praha : Supraphon, 1990.  This is the fourth example of WP:BIAS I've come across this week of a non-English subject, for which little information is available online, and does not show up in Google.   If the information is WP:V enormous caution should be exercised for non-English subjects to be deleted due WP:N concerns, based on lack of Google footprint, which easily turns out to be an argument from ignorance. It is correct to tag it as COI, and it could need pruning, AfD is not for clean-up though, and I am always more lenient when it is an openly self-declared COI.  Power.corrupts (talk) 16:01, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep: I gave Mr. Goldscheider some advice on how he should be involved from now on, by staying on the talk pages and providing sources, while avoiding further direct contributions to the article. I'm kind of glad how this discussion turned out to provoke further research and improvement of the article, where before it was hard to detect the notability behind the COI. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 18:03, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Snow Keep. Given that the nom and all editors participating are now in agreement.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:34, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.