Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander Telalim


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:27, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Alexander Telalim

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I prodded it with the following rationale: "The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing General notability guideline and the more detailed Notability (biographies) requirement. " It was deprodded by creator, User:Elena Elk, with the following comment "deleting "proposal deletion" and "orphan". Reason: I think that it is enough editing articles. Also added: Links to external sources, cross-references to other sections of Wikipedia, other minor edits." I am afraid I am still not convinved by the refs present; the ones I can read seem to mention him in passing, or be not very reliable (some minor galleries selling his art, a site on tripod, etc.). If any sources are reliable and discuss him in depth, please list them here. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 01:51, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * * Comment User:Elena Elk I am the author of this article and I give my arguments in more expanded form.

The artist in question - Alexander Telalim - was born in Ukraine, now living in Bulgaria. The main evidence of its importance published in Bulgarian, Russian and Ukrainian languages ​​(given in descending order). Assuming that such references to the English part of Wikipedia is not too important and understandable to the reader, I did not include them. It certainly was my mistake, for which I apologize and ask opponents to take into account the factor of my small experience in this matter. It was my first article for the English Wikipedia. Thanks to the just remark of Piotrus, it has allowed me to improve the text.

Now about the links, which were included. 1. Two link to site of artist. One link is a page with biography, second - to main page. The main page is empty, it really bad link, but I seems that I would put it as a link to artist website. The last of them can be delete. 2. A group of links from USA galleries. I selected the links to Gallery at the Consulate, because it gives one a some official status also. The exhibition at The Ukrainian National Museum in USA and an article about this exibition is a examples of so links. Of course, modern gallery is often carried out with the sale, so finding exactly an impartial source, such as the British Museum, it would be difficult. Another link with short biography of artist was used as English text from source other than the author's site. 3. Then three links to known private galleries in Bulgaria and Russia were used as a links satisfying the both parameters: English text and famous modern gallery in these countries. 4. Next 6 links are a references to the radio and television programs, as well as articles in the official media in Bulgaria, which were dedicated to the artist Alexander Telalim. I selected the only official state television and radio channels in Bulgaria (eg "Bulgarian National Radio" or "National Bulgarian TV"), as their significance seems to me a priority. Unfortunately, the Internet in Ukraine was a very weak during youth Alexander Telalim. Good links are hard to find now and there are no English texts, so I not used those ones. But it's is may be done easily, if necessary. 5. In Eastern Europe there is another indication of the importance of artists - is the inclusion of the so-called "National Union of Artists." Selection to pass is fairly strict rules and Alexander Telalim has long been a member of the Bulgarian Union of Artists. (This is indicated). 6. Then I found link to one of the more significant exhibitions. It was The "Masters of Watercolours" in St. Petersburg in 2015 (with a Exibition participants catalogue). 7. Artist has a more than 60 solo exhibitions around the world, including the world-famous galleries in the US, EU and Japan. It was another argument, which allowed me to believe his fame enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. (added) 8.The last links are the russian articles from different sites

Finally, if there are suspicions of my personal interest, I would like to just dismiss them. I am interested in South Russian school of art, the center of which is located in Odessa (modern Ukraine). I intend to write a series of articles about her artists, but the work is progressing too slow because of my employment elsewhere. Not more than a few days ago, I posted an article about the Grekov Odessa Art school, today or tomorrow I will write about another representative of this school, the artist Yuri Salko, who became famous as a new talent in the field of icons in the Byzantine style. I understand that the "myself" link is not a good argument for Wikipedia, but please note that my native language - Russian, Bulgarian and Ukrainian, so I can find information about these people in short order. If my links are not insufficient, I will put all its my forces to find more serious, however, I would like to understand what could be more serious than the government media conducted an interviews, lasting more than an hour? If this is not proof of the popularity and significance, what is the evidence?

P.S. I watched many articles about the artists from Eastern Europe and Russia, and I find that the more links there are simply not available or unreliable. I would like to understand why this article is motivated by a desire to remove it? As a rule, if the article does not have reliable information, it is asked to provide. However, the repeated removal requirement is puzzling, and I would like to understand the reason for such a drastic requirement? Elena Elk (talk) 04:57, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - I see several refs that are not in passing, including and  with Bulgarian National Radio; interviews, , lengthy profile/appearance on Bulgarian television program , and exhibition at the Ukrainian National Museum . I don't know if there are more out there;  these are the ones already listed on the article, but not mentioned in your summary of sources when you created this AfD. I'm also curious why this article should be deleted.   —Мандичка YO 😜 05:37, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * More refs -, , , , ,  —Мандичка YO 😜 05:58, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Google hits are not enough. Which of those are not WP:QUESTIONABLE? National Radio seems best, but problematic; it wasn't a program about him by some scholars or critics; those were interviews with him. As such, those have problems with WP:RS: he is a primary source about himself, after all. One could argue that the mere fact of being invited establishes notability, but this is, as far as I know, not supported by policy, and I an hesitant to support it (the interviews where, btw, how long? 1 minute? Half an hour?). All other unreliable sources aside (galleries selling or otherwise benefiting from his works are not independent sources; just like book publishers/bookstores cannot be sufficient sources for a book's notability). Granted, WP:ARTIST does state that if his work " has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition", but then we need to discuss what is a significant exhibition (I'd say one that is notable, i.e. has attracted major coverage, which is not what I see for the exhibitions listed in this article). Finally, the claim that membership in Union of Bulgarian Artists (an article of dubious notability itself as written, through a quick search shows it to be notable otherwise) is anything extra-ordinary needs to be backed up with sources. Is this a reputable organizations with selective membership? I am not seeing it; and as such I am not ready to accept the fact that membership in it conveys notability. In the end, keep in mind not all artists are notable, and nothing I see here suggests to me that this person is ready to be in an encyclopedia. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:18, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. AllyD (talk) 06:35, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Dude these are not "Google hits" but coverage of him and not a single one is from a gallery either, so I really don't what you're talking about. I can understand not everybody can read Cyrillic but you can at least bother to use Google Translate. The only one that is not from an independent news source is this one from the City of Chicago's Sister Cities partnership website (as Kyiv is a sister city), and that's an announcement from the National Museum of Ukraine. And it's even in English. I have never read anywhere or heard anyone suggest that a Q&A or an interview (written or live) does not count as coverage toward GNG. A Q&A done with a RS is not considered a primary source except for the purpose of specific content/claim that would need to be subject to additional verification (such as claim of record company profits etc). You state merely being invited to be featured in an interview with a RS does not count toward GNG as this is "not supported by policy." ORLY? What policy is that? Because it's not in any Wikipedia policy, and I'm sorry to say I don't recognize WP:THINGSPIOTRIMAGINES as policy :-( Considering Q&A format interviews are very common and are frequently referenced, surely this specific rule you think exists would be in the guideline, somewhere.... And by "the interviews where" do you mean where can you find the radio interview??? Instructions: 1) open your eyes (please do not skip this step) 2) go to the page [] 3) look at the page (also important) 4) click the triangle PLAY button on the big media player on the page.   —Мандичка YO 😜 07:28, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment The duration of the interview in these sources varies from half an hour to two hours.
 * On membership in the Union of Artists of Bulgaria written here: http://www.sbhart.com/bg/members/letter/%D0%A2/p/20#letter
 * or here: http://www.sbhart.com/en/members/letter/T/p/20#letter
 * I can to agree that this source may be given also, but I did not see that in other articles about the artists of Eastern Europe.
 * The book, which was cited in the references, not just a result of publication of his works, but the catalog of one of the most famous exhibition of masters of watercolors in the world. In my opinion, is really proof of the author's fame. Beginners or unknown masters there just are not included.
 * In some cases I cite and link to the both: exhibition and reviews. I described it in detail above. I can increase the number of some links to 10-20 pieces, but I have to take reviews in Bulgarian, Ukrainian and Russian languages, which is not too good for the English Wikipedia.
 * With all due respect to the search engines, especially Google, I want to note that this is not the best argument for the encyclopedia, also should take into account that the search should be conducted in the national languages and national offices of Google.
 * It seems a not serious argument that you do not know about the complexity of admission to the National Artists Union in Eastern Europe. If you do not have this information, it can be read anywhere, in Google or Wikipedia, or on cite http://www.sbhart.com/en, or about history of art at former socialist countries.
 * I will summarize. I put links to long radio and TV shows with the artist, and in the presence of Bulgarian critics and art historians. I put links and list important exhibitions outside Bulgaria.
 * I bring proof of adoption of the selective union of artists.
 * I quote the article, which tells about the artist in large galleries.
 * I cite references to articles published on the Internet, completely dedicated to the work of the artist.
 * What do I need more?
 * Which exhibition?
 * If I give you a long list of links to reviews on the Bulgarian or Russian, it will be the argument of fame?
 * The number of personal exhibitions is one of the most important arguments the significance of the artist. I chose of Telalim first because it is very large. Why is it that no argument? Articles is appearing in each(!) exibition in the national languages.
 * Finally, I repeat my question - why require removal article, but not correction?
 * Elena Elk (talk) 07:55, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * , ne volnyites ponaprasnu, prime4aniya bolee 4em dostato4no! on 4oknuty 😁 —Мандичка YO 😜 16:25, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep Elena Elk (talk) 09:07, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep: Meets the notability guidelines for artists. Given the oddity of the prose in the article, I can understand why it was initially listed, but the references added show that the artist is notable. I will at least clean the English. (I'm not going to do much or anything about its claims, though, as all my artists have been dead a few hundred years.) Hithladaeus (talk) 12:51, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bulgaria-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:43, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:43, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:43, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep Initially, the article may be not contain a number of links, but now everything is in order. My little search in the Bulgarian network shows popularity of the artist adequately.
 * Shad Innet (talk) 08:22, 4 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete, the only reliable source in the article is Bulgarian National Radion, and, as Piotrus states, even this source is problematic.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment This source is not problematic, as is the direct link to it. In addition, there are links to Bulgarian television. Shad Innet (talk) 08:52, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * This, for example, the TV program of 55 minutes about the artist and his works by the Bulgarian state television.
 * Comment. This is likely an alt account of Elena Elk, registered on 2 June.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:07, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment. I do not have any relation to this account Shad Innet (talk) 09:46, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment. May be you are a different account Piotrus? )) I think so due to nobody spoke against article in this discussions a whole week. Piotrus offers all the time to the deletion of most pages in this poorly versed in the link. No?
 * I will not deny that I am know the newcomer Elena Elk, and even working in the same place, but we are different people.
 * It's not my nick. Elena Elk (talk) 15:03, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I just added a dozen references to an interview with the artist, and reviews of his work. In the list are Bulgaria TV (two channels) and TV of Ukraine, some of the local channels in Chicago (I don't know this channel). Still not enough? Shad Innet (talk) 09:46, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

And I think our task, my task - to support these people and help them correct their mistakes. We will gain new good editor and a lot of new pages in the future. Instead of Piotrus put the page for deletion without seeing the previous changes. Мандичка well although somewhat ill qualified. He said all the items and added a lot of links (thanks, some of them I put in the article today). Among the options - an interview with state television channels in Ukraine and Bulgaria are probably small private channel in Chicago. Several references to the broadcast. All of them are quite a long period, which is already talking about the significance of the artist. If you look at the headlines of articles, we see that the authors have no doubt of the importance of the artist. The extent that Izmail is the title "us goes a famous artist", for example. Note one that Izmail - it is Ukraine but Alexander Telalim lives in Bulgaria. In my opinion, this article is already an overabundance of significant links, although I personally would link them with text or otherwise distributed, but this is a big job. Instead of the conversation is continued about the removal and furthermore starts transition to the individual. I work together with Elena at the same institute. Those interested can see the link to our place of work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budker_Institute_of_Nuclear_Physics We have dozens of people write articles for Wikipedia, and I would be a shame to lose another quite good author. By the way, the alternate nickname Elena is widely known, it is right in her account - is Элена Элк, that means the same thing, but is written in Cyrillic. I do not regret the author's call - she does not need it. But look closely enough links to understand that they have too much rather than "not enough." I note that this criticism does not even look. DixiShad Innet (talk) 10:16, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment. Shad Innet (talk) 10:16, 9 June 2015 (UTC) You know, this is not my style, but I shall explain. I do not understand why Piotrus demanded the delete of the article. If we look at the editing history, we can see that the first author put only English links. This is a fairly common mistake for beginners who are trying to extend the non-English culture in the English Wikipedia.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.