Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Finnila


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Finnila's Finnish Baths. The summary of the discussion as I see it is the following. Finnila is likely notable, however, none of the available sources sufficiently and in depth describes hs activities. (Note that some of the links are dead). Better sources can be found in the libraries, and in expectation for these to be found, the best solution proposed is to redirect the article. If/when sources are found, it can be restored, the whole editing history remains intact.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:08, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Alfred Finnila

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Non-notable civil engineer and Finnish bath owner —teb728 t c 22:02, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions.  czar   &middot;   &middot;  00:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  czar   &middot;   &middot;  00:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions.  czar   &middot;   &middot;  00:01, 28 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Much of the article makes little mention of Finnila. I'm not sure if Finnila is notable or not but don't be drawn into making assumptions just from the article's length! There's a huge amount of WP:COATRACK in there, along the lines of "Finnila was tangentially involved in X so now I'll spend a couple of hundred words talking about X without mentioning Finnila again." I've trimmed away about half the text as completely irrelevant (for example, a very lengthy description of "Little Scandinavia" that mentioned Finnila only once and only in passing), the long WP:COPYVIO quote from a novel and the three infoboxes taken from other pages. Certainly, if the article is to be kept, it needs much more work. For example, the claim that he was the second-most important person on the Golden Gate Bridge project seems rather overblown: surely, that would be trivial to check with Google, if it were true? I suspect that, if this article were to be trimmed down to be about Finnila alone, there wouldn't be very much left that was out of the ordinary. Dricherby (talk) 00:31, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Even after your deletions, most of what remains is about Finnila's Finnish Baths and Alfred Finnila's parents. Although the bath house may be notable, I can't find any indication that Alfred Finnila is notable; his article might even fail A7. —teb728 t c 02:02, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Good point: I've now deleted the section that were only about the bath houses. Dricherby (talk) 08:59, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. A lot of things he was associated with were interesting and perhaps notable in themselves, but that's not enough to make him notable, due to WP:NOTINHERITED. Qworty (talk) 02:51, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. I've not been able to find any real notability. In addition to the WP:COATRACKing noted above, the article also has a tendency to overstate the subject's importance: for example, the phrase "assistant civil engineer of California" sounds almost like the deputy chief civil engineer of the state; in reality, assistant civil engineer appears to be a relatively junior position like assistant professor (and you wouldn't call an assistant professor at UCLA "assistant professor of California"). We're left with somebody who worked on the Golden Gate Bridge, inherited a few bathhouses from his parents and ran a geothermal drilling company which I infer was unremarkable since the article doesn't even give its name. Dricherby (talk) 08:59, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That exactly is another aspect which makes the Alfred Finnila story even more remarkable and worthy of presentation in Wikipedia. This point indeed needs to be better emphasized in the article too:  Finnila achieved all this at a very young age. What does this tell us about his skills, talent and work ethic, which led to the remarkable achievements?  Just the fact alone, that he was the one chosen to design the famous Bridge Round House, which was built immediately following the completion of the bridge, speaks for itself, even if we set aside all sources relating to the other issues.  Undoubtedly, if there would have been anyone better available for the task, they would have been given the job.  Why ruin the ambiance of the entirety of the Golden Gate Bridge project at this stage any more, when practically all eyes now were on this final topping on the cake, the completion of Bridge Round House, built adjacent to the bridge.  Although Finnila had started working on the bridge construction first as a time-keeper in 1933, he was rapidly promoted to carry big responsibilities.  That remarkable rise of Finnila is presented in the newspaper article, which has been used as a source in the Wikipedia article.  A large size picture of Finnila is featured in the newspaper article as well.


 * How is it possible then that Finnila was so good in what he was doing, and at so young age too? Answer:  Alfred Finnila was an extraordinary man, with an extraordinary upbringing.  He had got a unique and powerful head start in his construction studies, compared to his fellow engineering students and his co-workers.  Alfred was the only son in his family.  He had wanted to participate in the construction projects of his father's construction business already at a very young age.  Alfred Finnila's sister too started "working" at a young age, at the age of only five years already, to help out at the front counter of Finnila's Finnish Baths.


 * In 1932, Alfred Finnila finished the construction of his own bathhouse on San Francisco's Market Street, with a unique design and technical operating systems which he himself had designed. The new bathhouse included an elaborate embedded gas-pipeline system, designed for the heating of the hot rocks of a large number of sauna rooms.  The system was one of a kind, not countered elsewhere. When Alfred Finnila began running his own businesses from his own offices at 2280 Market Street in 1932, he had just turned 19 years old.  However - despite of his young age -, Alfred was already an experienced "master builder" in his own right at that point, thought by his father and the skillful working men of his father, who had helped to rebuild the City of San Francisco after the devastating 1906 San Francisco earthquake. The special skills of theirs and the special skills related to the construction of buildings and bending of metal which had ran in the Finnila family over a long time period, were transferred to Alfred Finnila.  Alfred's uncle had from the late 1800s onward ran a successful baking oven manufacturing business in the City of Los Angeles in California.  He too had participated in the upbringing of Alfred Finnila. -- Rubert ABC (talk) 14:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * This is not an argument for keeping the page. Almost everything above is your personal opinion of Finnila and I am worried that this opinion is so positive that it would be very hard for you to write a balanced article on him. Your conclusions drawn from him being asked to design the Bridge Round House and that Finnila was "an extraordinary man with an extraordinary upbringing" are entirely original research, which has no place on Wikipedia. Also, what you have written about Finnila's childhood is not at all out of the ordinary: it is perfectly common for children to help out in family businesses. Every bathhouse is unique so sources would be required to show that Finnila's design was significant, rather than just the solution to the specific problems of building a bathhouse in that location. My belief remains that Finnila is a minor figure, whose importance has been dramatically and consistently overstated by a very enthusiastic editor. Dricherby (talk) 07:38, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with my personal views. If someone else would have been chosen to oversee these projects, an article about him/her would deserve to be in Wikipedia.  For us to speculate why exactly Finnila was given these responsibilities, e.g. the designing of Bridge Round House is rather pointless.  What counts and what needs to be revealed in Wikipedia is that it was he who was pointed for these tasks, and that it was he who built the Finnila's bathhouse on San Francisco's Market Street, and that he ran Finnila's for seven decades, etc.   Like this article, the similar type of article about Adolph Sutro deserves to be in Wikipedia as well, although - unlike Alfred Finnila - Sutro did not personally build his bathhouse, nor did he oversee the main works of Golden Gate Bridge, etc.  -- Rubert ABC (talk) 17:33, 7 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Further to my comments on his job title, the 1937 Yearbook of the American Society of Civil Engineers describes him as just "Eng. Draftsman"; but contains many other people described as "Asst. Engr."  Since "Engr." means "engineer", I infer that an "Eng. Draftsman" is an "engineering draftsman", rather than an "engineer and draftsman". This is consistent with him not having left college yet: he wouldn't be titled "engineer" without a degree. Dricherby (talk) 09:10, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There are unanswered questions to us, for now:
 * 1. Perhaps that was a state regulated job title to which one could be promoted/entitled under certain circumstances in the 1930s, even though the person might not have graduated from their engineering school as of yet.
 * 2. Perhaps the title was given to Finnila in the end of the bridge construction in 1937, after he had just graduated in the springtime of the same year.
 * 3. Perhaps the "yearbook" which you refer to was published in 1937 - or even in the end of 1936 - before Finnila graduated in the springtime of 1937 - etc.
 * What ever the case may be, I am happy with the other title which you brought up as well. -- Rubert ABC (talk) 14:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep article. By deleting, we would promote criteria, based on which countless articles should be deleted. It is one of the purposes of Wikipedia to present the individuals in charge of the building and operating of various "landmark" type projects and businesses.  If not presented, Wikipedia would be a much less useful tool for search of information.  This article meets the criteria for what is generally accepted as notable in Wikipedia.  The article was already improved. However, it can be further improved to better emphasize the significance of Alfred Finnila in relation to e.g. the following key matters:
 * Golden Gate Bridge - in this and other similar projects, there are those who clearly were of special importance and in charge of notably more than others. Such is the case of Alfred Finnila in the construction of the world famous Golden Gate Bridge.  During the critical final years of the uplifting of the bridge's main structure, Finnila oversaw all of the bridge's ironing work and half of the bridge's roadwork.  Accordingly - precisely for this reason -, The San Francisco Examiner in May of 1982 presented Alfred Finnila as the "Assistant Civil Engineer of California", who was a key contributor for the completion of the Golden Gate Bridge work.
 * Bridge Round House - the Art Deco design of the famous Bridge Round House was completed by Alfred Finnila in 1938, immediately following the completion of the construction of the adjacent Golden Gate Bridge.
 * Finnila's Finnish Baths - Alfred Finnila designed and built the famous bathhouse on San Francisco's Market Street, and he then oversaw its operations as general manager for seven decades. Finnila's was a popular and important element in the history of San Francisco's Castro District.   Still shortly before closing its popular Market Street location in San Francisco in the 1980s, Finnila's Finnish Baths - owned and managed by Alfred Finnila - was awarded with the title "The Best" two times in row by the popular bi-weekly and free San Francisco Bay Area entertainment magazine San Francisco Bay Guardian.  According to the paper, Finnila's was "The Best Sauna and Massage Parlor" in the San Francisco Bay Area in 1983 and 1984.  -- Rubert ABC (talk) 23:48, 28 April 2013 (UTC)


 * In response to Rubert ABC: Of your linked references only one even mentions Alfred Finnila. I don’t have access to the two non-linked references, but I would guess from the titles and how you use them that the first mentions him, and the last does not. What we are looking for is significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject—significant coverage, not mere mentions. Coverage of the bath house (if it is significant coverage) would qualify the bath house for an article but not its owner. Yes, many articles need to be deleted, and many are deleted every day. —teb728 t c 20:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Two sources directly speak of Alfred Finnila by his name, whereas for instance the Auerbach book discusses the bathhouse and tells how the owner's father had brought the sauna idea with him from Finland, etc.   -- Rubert ABC (talk) 14:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It also seems unlikely that Stevanne Auerbach's work of fiction constitutes a reliable source. Dricherby (talk) 21:31, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The novel provides a description of the bathhouse. In my view, for instance brief quotes of the description can be provided, as long as it is stated that the quotes are form the novel by such and such. -- Rubert ABC (talk) 14:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The novel is a work of fiction! The descriptions inside it could be made up. Dricherby (talk) 07:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * You seem to miss the point: Although two sources mention his name, but they do not give him significant coverage. It takes significant coverage to demonstrate notability. As for the novel, (even if it were a reliable source) it describes the bathhouse—not Alfred Finnila, and notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. —teb728 t c 21:31, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The article by San Francisco Examiner highlights Alfred Finnila and explains his contributions in the bridge construction. The paper provides a large picture of Alfred Finnila as well (he is alone in the picture).  That is significant coverage from one source.  The website of San Francisco Chronicle correctly reports that the Art Deco of Bridge Round House was designed by Alfred Finnila.  Accordingly, these sources have been appropriately used, and the sources meet Wikipedia standards.  -- Rubert ABC (talk) 02:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Rubert, Please read Notability (GNG); it is the standard that the closing admin will use in deciding what to do with the article. As you can see there, a source must give significant coverage in order to be counted as showing notability. And it defines, “‘Significant coverage’ means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.” The San Francisco Chronicle article makes only a trivial mention of Finnila; so (despite your repeatedly citing it) the admin will not consider it in deciding whether to keep the article. —teb728 t c 01:25, 11 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Finnila's Finnish Baths for now. Notable San Franciscan.  Unfortunately, you aren't going to discover this from doing a Google search.  This is one of those cases where print sources trump electronic records.  I will be working with Rubert ABC to help solve this problem.  Until then, redirect to Finnila's Finnish Baths. Viriditas (talk) 02:06, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you agree, Viriditas. Thank you for the assistance. -- Rubert ABC (talk) 14:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Incubate This way the page can be worked on and the sourcing issues addressed outside of main space and without the specter of deletion hanging over its head. J04n(talk page) 11:12, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
 * At first I thought that incubation might be helpful, but as I think about it, the problem with the article is not a lack of sources, but that even taking the article’s claims at face value, the subject is not important or significant. He is an unremarkable civil engineer and the unremarkable owner of an at best marginally notable business. —teb728 t c 21:31, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * If there would have been another engineer instead of Finnila carrying these responsibilities at the bridge construction or being in charge of designing Bridge Round House (setting aside Finnila's, etc.), we would have an article about him/her in Wikipedia - or, if there were no article for him/her already, we would need to write one. -- Rubert ABC (talk) 02:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * You keep saying that and it's a non-argument. If some other engineer had done these things and somebody had written an article about him, we'd be having the exact same discussion at Articles for deletion/That Engineer's Name instead. Dricherby (talk) 08:17, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Save:  Appropriately referenced and meets Wikipedia standards.  ~ BjornTroms (talk) 15:34, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Adequate sources, appears marginally notable.   Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Finnila's Finnish Baths (for now), per Viriditas.  Mini  apolis  14:22, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Dea  db  eef  21:59, 5 May 2013 (UTC)




 * Keep article If someone else would have been chosen to oversee these projects, an article about him/her would deserve to be in Wikipedia.  For us to speculate why exactly Finnila was given these responsibilities, e.g. the designing of Bridge Round House is rather pointless.  What counts and what needs to be revealed in Wikipedia is that it was he who was pointed for these tasks, and that it was he who built the Finnila's bathhouse on San Francisco's Market Street, and that he ran Finnila's for seven decades, etc.   Like this article, the similar type of article about Adolph Sutro deserves to be in Wikipedia as well, although - unlike Alfred Finnila - Sutro did not personally build his bathhouse, nor did he oversee the main works of Golden Gate Bridge, etc.  -- Rubert ABC (talk) 17:33, 7 May 2013 (UTC) duplicate !vote struck. Dricherby (talk) 18:45, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
 * We're discussing Finnila, not Sutro (WP:OTHERSTUFF) and, again, I remind you that the criterion is notability, not some notion of "deservingness". By the way, Sutro was mayor of San Francisco so is immediately notable under WP:POLITICIAN. Dricherby (talk) 08:22, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * But since you want to compare Finnila with Sutro: If Finnila had gone on to become mayor, he would be notable. Or if the bridge had been named the Finnila Bridge in recognition of his envisioning and designing it and securing its financing (compare the Sutro Tunnel). It’s true that Sutro didn’t design the Sutro Baths, and notice that the article doesn’t even mention who the designer was, which shows how important the designer of a bathhouse is. —teb728 t c 10:20, 9 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree with those above who see this qualifying - the information is notable enough, and the sources are "adequate". From the article:


 * Alfred Finnila oversaw all the ironing work and half of the road work of the Golden Gate Bridge, during the uplifting of the bridge's main structure in 1933–1937. Immediately following the completion of the bridge work, the Art Deco design of the famous Bridge Round House diner was completed by Alfred Finnila at the southeastern end of the Golden Gate Bridge in 1938.  -- Rubert ABC (talk) 17:46, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep I would agree that Finnila's contributions to a major birdge make him notable. However at the same time we need to cut down to coat racking and focus the article on Finnila.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:12, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Notability comes from significant coverage in independent, reliable sources, not from judgments about whether the person's achievements were important. Dricherby (talk) 16:04, 10 May 2013 (UTC)