Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alim Ahmed Fatah


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Fritzpoll (talk) 13:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Alim Ahmed Fatah

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

I have great doubts about notability. In Google News, only one reference to a source of unknown reliability shows up (WardheerNews, also in the article). I am also unable to verify the inventions and awards mentioned in the article. -- Crowsnest (talk) 11:31, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Keep -- Criteria of Notability:

Dr Alim Ahmed Fatah qualifies, as his peer reviewed research is evidence of this. Under his auspices the self adhesive postage stamp was invented and www.pnc3.org/TPN/1993/may-93.pdf Dr Alim Ahmed Fatah qualifies, as he been recognised with several prestigious awards such as the Zappert award and Gold Medal for Distinguished Service, Leadership and Accomplishments from the Secretary, U.S. Department of Commerce(though i'm currently unable to verify the first award in other sources other than Wardheernews, however i doubt a professional academic such as Dr Alim Ahmed Fatah would lie about receiving a prestigious award in a interview with a popular Somali news website) Dr Alim Ahmed Fatah qualifies as he had/has leadership rolers in the following entities: The American Chemical Society (ACS), 2) the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM), 3) The American Industrial Hygiene Association (AIHA), The American Association of Official Analytical Chemists (AOAC), 4) The Interagency Board for Equipment Standardization and Interoperability (IAB), 5) The American National Standards Institute’s Homeland Security Standards Panel (ANSI-HSSP), 6) The National Organization of Black Chemists and Chemical Engineers (NOBCCHE), 7) The British Standards Institution (BSI) Dr Alim Ahmed Fatah qualifies see points 1/2/3 I'm not aware of wether Dr Alim Ahmed Fatah in his long professional career has ever served as a professor but from his interview with Wardheernews i can only deduct that he is at times a teacher. See point 3 See point 1 Does not qualify Dr Alim Ahmed Fatah has co-authored and written chapters in many scientific books For this reason i believe the nomination for deletion is wrong! --Scoobycentric (talk) 13:04, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 1 The person's research has made significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources.
 * 2 The person has received a highly prestigious academic award or honor at a national or international level.
 * 3 The person is or has been an elected member of a highly selective and prestigious scholarly society or association (e.g. a National Academy of Sciences or the Royal Society) or a Fellow of a major scholarly society for which that is a highly selective honor (e.g. the IEEE)
 * 4 The person's academic work has made a significant impact in the area of higher education, affecting a substantial number of academic institutions.
 * 5 The person holds or has held a named/personal chair appointment or "Distinguished Professor" appointment at a major institution of higher education and research.
 * 6 The person has held a major highest-level elected or appointed academic post at an academic institution or major academic society.
 * 7 The person has made substantial impact outside academia in their academic capacity.
 * 8 The person is or has been an editor-in-chief of a major well-established journal in their subject area.
 * 9 The person is in a field of literature (e.g writer or poet) or the fine arts (e.g. musician, composer, artist), and meets the standards for notability in that art, such as WP:CREATIVE or WP:MUSIC.
 * Comments. First of all, he's not an academic, so it's already reaching to apply the academic notability criteria. As with the other Somali scientist entries, many of the accomplishments claimed are requirements for the sort of career they're following; a "scientist with peer reviewed publications" isn't more notable than "a scientist" because - at a certain level - they refer to exactly the same group of people. Hairhorn (talk) 13:38, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. This article comes off as more of a resume.  Cool, he developed the self-adhesive postage stamp.  Great.  Where does he fall into WP:N, and particularly WP:BLP? -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 15:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment No he did NOT invent the self-adhesive postage stamp. Re-read the 1992 patent. Drawn Some (talk) 16:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Noted. -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 17:33, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete Independent reliable sources do not exist to provide in-depth coverage necessary to establish notability. They should be in English since his education and career have been at English-speaking schools and in English-speaking countries but if there are references to establish notability in Arabic I will reconsider my opinion.  Drawn Some (talk) 16:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hairhorn - again I disagree, not all researchers receive awards such as the ones given to Alim A. Fatah or else these awards would mean nothing as everyone would have them, clearly that's not the case and the fact that he received them is a sign of recognition for his contributions.
 * Dennis the Tiger - the article currently might look like a resume this however doesn't mean the the article would remain static forever in this form.
 * Granted, but it appears that there are other problems that have been pointed out. -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 17:33, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Drawn Some - actually nobody said he alone invented it but he was the project leader during the development of this particular stamp. The lack of indepth sources is not evidence of non-notability as the section Notability Fallacies of the article Arguments to avoid in Deletion discussions highlights --Scoobycentric (talk) 16:29, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Read the patent, it isn't FOR the invention of the self-adhesive postage stamp, team or solo flyer. It is an invention for what looks like a particular configuration.  It is a minor patent. Many scientists have hundreds or thousands of such patents.  The problem with this fellow is the lack of sources.  And lack of in-depth coverage in independent reliable sources is PRECISELY what makes him non-notable. Drawn Some (talk)


 * Comment I found this (maybe someone already mentioned it?) I'm not sure on this biography. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:27, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep All of the criteria for notability have been met, as amply demonstrated above by Scoobycentric. He has also already mentioned that Wardheernews source, which, incidentally, does indeed state that Alim Ahmed Fatah "has developed among other things the currently popular self-adhesive postage stamp." I'm not sure why no one else picked up on this except for ChildofMidnight. Whatever the case, there clearly is no legitimate reason to delete this article. Middayexpress (talk) 19:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the Wardheernews source, Fatah has also won the Team Leadership Award for Environmental Achievement from the U.S. Secretary of Agriculture as well as the Gold Medal for Distinguished Service, Leadership and Accomplishments, the latter of which was awarded by the Secretary, U.S. Department of Commerce and apparently constitutes "the highest award given to U.S. Civil Service". I fail to see how that too is not notable. Middayexpress (talk) 19:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ChildofMidnight - yes that source is where i orginally got my info from because any person that reads that interview will clearly process that this individual is a notable person worthy of a entry on wiki.
 * Drawn Some - clearly you know more about patent systems and how it works than me so i wont argue with you on that but again Alim A. Fatah is a important person as this following source showcases:
 * Dr. Fatah is recognized for leadership and foresight in establishing the Critical Incident Technologies program at NIST to address the Nation's need for a suite of Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear and Explosives (CBRNE) protective equipment standards, and for positioning the government to respond when the need was most urgent. Dr. Fatah's program has created much needed standards and guides to enable state and local first responders to accelerate upgrading their capabilities to respond safely and effectively to terrorism and other incidents involving possible CBRNE threats. - National Institute of Standards and Technology
 * Dr. Fatah is recognized for leadership and foresight in establishing the Critical Incident Technologies program at NIST to address the Nation's need for a suite of Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear and Explosives (CBRNE) protective equipment standards, and for positioning the government to respond when the need was most urgent. Dr. Fatah's program has created much needed standards and guides to enable state and local first responders to accelerate upgrading their capabilities to respond safely and effectively to terrorism and other incidents involving possible CBRNE threats. - National Institute of Standards and Technology


 * hr.commerce.gov/Practitioners/PerformanceManagementandAwards/ssLINK/prod01_001298


 * How is he not notable when the National Institute of Standards and Technology of the US holds him responsible for the advancement in standards and guides used to combat terrorism based on his research and leadership?--Scoobycentric (talk) 19:18, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment So either show significant in-depth coverage in independent reliable sources OR give a reliable source to verify that he was awarded the "highest award given to U.S. Civil Service". Drawn Some (talk) 20:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Already done. That quote again was from this source. Middayexpress (talk) 20:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Drawn Some see page 29 --Scoobycentric (talk) 21:58, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The highest award for US Civil Servants is the President's Award for Distinguished Federal Civilian Service, at least according to wikipedia and other sources. And Google searches for "The Gold Medal for Distinguished Service, Leadership and Accomplishments" and related searches only bring up hits for the interview with Dr. Fatah and the wiki page up for deletion. He may have some claim to notability, but much of it is unverifiable. One interview on a web page is not enough for verification.  Hairhorn (talk) 22:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Gold Medal for Distinguished Service, Leadership and Accomplishments from the Secretary, U.S. Department of Commerce --Scoobycentric (talk) 22:21, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That award is the highest departmental award. It's like employee of the year for the department except two dozen people get it so it's more like employee of the twice-a-month staff meeting.  It's not the highest civilian award.  Honestly, I don't like these exaggerations regarding inventions and awards.  Wikipedia editors may be easily fooled in clumps of two or three but we are a pretty tough bunch to fool en masse. Drawn Some (talk) 22:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Wardheernews.com is not a reliable source. The "Articles" section states:
 * "We welcome the submission of all articles for possible publication on wardheerNews.com. email your article today
 * Opinions expressed in this article are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of WardheerNews"
 * So it does not have the editorial screening and verification of a reliable news organisation.
 * Even worse is the "Forum" section (shown on top of the referenced page http://wardheernews.com/Wareysiyo/April_06_Wareysi_Alim.Fatah.htm), which page is blocked for viewing by my browser (Firefox) as an attack site, i.e. trying to install programs on my computer for phishing or other harmful intents. So forget about this one. -- Crowsnest (talk) 23:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, Wardheernews is a reliable source and it does have editorial screening. Here's what it states on its "About us" page:


 * "'WardheerNews is a Somali Web Portal, intended for the Somalis in the Horn of Africa and the world at large as well as other interested individuals and organizations. It is designed to provide reliable up to date news reports, studies and analysis on current issues and problems of concern to the Somali people encompassing political, social and cultural fields."


 * "Accordingly, WardheerNews's main mission is to produce and print for wider dessimination, articles and commentaries of high journalistic standard that are fair, objective and free from extremism, bias or external influence."


 * "At this historic occasion of launching this important web magazine, the editorial Board takes this opportunity to extend warm compliments to all associates and readers of WardheerNews and invite them to submit their views, comments and analysis on issues of special concern to the people of our region. We urge them all to use WardheerNews as an appropriate forum for exchange of information, debate, discussion and interaction."


 * "Thanks"


 * "Editorial Board"


 * "November 23, 2004 '"


 * The interview in question was conducted by Wardheernews itself. This is why the question asker's handle bears the WDN acronym i.e. because he works for Wardheernews as a member of its staff: "Wardheernews takes this rare opportunity to recognize Dr. Fatah's achievement in his professional field and presents him to its readership. Mr. Ahmed A. Hassan conducted the interview for Wardheernews." The article is therefore not an op-ed piece. Also, though I'm not sure why Firefox is preventing you from accessing the site (its not blocking it for me, and I'm also using Firefox), Wardheernews is not a spam site. It's actually a very respected online news outlet where scholars, intellectuals and others in the Somalist and Horn African community regularly premiere their works. Its articles are also cited and republished by other renowned news organizations (e.g. this article by Johann Hari in The Independent). Middayexpress (talk) 00:44, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Crowsnest Middayexpress is correct, Wardheernews is one of the most respected Somali online news outlets, see these quotes from the San Diego Tribune article: Somalia news through Web site is brothers' mission by Peter Rowe''':

They are not alone. On the Internet, there's no shortage of media outlets peddling news from Mogadishu, Hargeysa, Berbera and other cities and villages on the Horn of Africa.

"But a number of these Web sites are clan-based, so they're tilted to one side," '''said Abdullah Said Osman, Somalia's last ambassador to the United Nations (1984-1991) and now diplomat-in-residence at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va. "In my opinion, Wardheer News gives an unbiased, reliable reporting of events. That's what makes it popular." '''

--- These days, Wardheer News is well beyond "Wow!" By April, traffic had increased 10-fold. This month, they were on track to draw more than 1 million visitors.

---

"This is a site where intellectuals can debate issues," said Abdiweli Heibeh, a San Diego police officer and an occasional Wardheer News contributor.

The site's news stories are supplied by an eclectic array of sources, from Al-Jazeera to the Pentagon, from London's Daily Telegraph to Agence France-Presse. This comprehensive, open-minded approach appeals to Mohamed M. Garad, a retired diplomat whose career included stints as Somalia's ambassador to Nigeria, Uganda and Qatar.

Wardheernews is a reliable news outlet.
 * Drawn Some nobody here is trying to fool anyone, you can read our claims in the links provided therein. I find it interesting that you would downplay the importance of that particular medal, when it comes from an institution that oversees the Economic growth of the United States which in the last election was a pillar in the campaigns of any competing candidate, i refuse to believe receiving a Gold medal from this same entity is the equivalance of me receiving a 'employee of the year' award at my office job. --Scoobycentric (talk) 09:35, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It is totally unclear to me what a site's traffic statistics have to do with is reliability. I would say, from what I see on the internet: it has nothing to do with reliability.
 * Further, quotes from some individuals do not provide evidence whether Wardheernews belongs to the "''…reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.…" as defined in WP:Reliable sources. -- Crowsnest (talk)


 * Comment Another point is that the article in Wardheernews (apart from the reliability of this source) is an interview, so it is a primary source. While the notability guidelines, see WP:GNG requires: …"Sources," for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability.… -- Crowsnest (talk) 09:41, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We have already demonstrated that Wardheernews is considered a reliable news outlet condoned by a variety of professional and non-professional people/entities. Wikipedia policy makes it clear that one can use primary sources if the sources are considered mainstream and reliable, Wardheernews qualifies for both:


 * Our policy: Primary sources that have been reliably published (for example, by a university press or mainstream newspaper) may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. Without a secondary source, a primary source may be used only to make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is verifiable by a reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages from the novel to describe the plot, but any interpretation of those passages needs a secondary source. Do not make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about information found in a primary source. - primary source.


 * In the Somali world Wardheernews is the equivalance of the Daily Telegraph and those interested in Somali issues either contribute to or reference this same outlet--Scoobycentric (talk) 09:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Crowsnest i just noticed that you removed the Wardheernews reference because you believe it contained malware, but no such thing occurred when I, Childofmidnight and Middayexpress visited the same link. I would like to ask those engaging in this discussion to click on the link and see if the same problem happens to you or wether its just an individual case. If it's the latter then i will reinsert this reference --Scoobycentric (talk) 10:06, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Reliable primary sources can be used additionally in an article, but the bulk of the sources should be secondary, see Reliable sources. Notability is based on secondary sources, see my comment above.
 * I still have the same problem concerning the "Reported attack site" warning with the "Forum" link above the interview in Wardheernews. Perhaps some more people can try, and report whether they find problems. If not, the link can be re-inserted. -- Crowsnest (talk) 10:26, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments: This discussion is a mess regarding lay-out. Please adhere to AfD: only use bold very sparingly, use a bullet to start your contribution and indent according to which contribution you react to. Regarding his function at NIST: I can nowhere find he is "head of International relations at the National Institute of Standards and Technology" as claimed in the article at this moment, with a citation to page 15 of http://www.eeel.nist.gov/oles/NIST-Law_Enforcement_Tech_Partnerships.pdf for verification. This document, from 2001, says on page 14 and 15 that Alim A. Fatah is a staff member of the Office of Law Enforcement Standards (OLES) within NIST, with Kathleen Higgins as its director, and that at that time he is one of the program managers. It says about him: "The manager of the Chemical Systems and Materials program, for example, also serves as OLES' International Relations manager." In the 2007 document http://www.eeel.nist.gov/oles/Publications/Office_of_Law_Enforcement_Standards.pdf on page vii it is said he is Program Manager: Public Safety and Security Technologies; and nothing any more about International Relations. -- Crowsnest (talk) 01:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions.  —David Eppstein (talk) 04:20, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Comments: Crowsnest a Program manager at OLES is also known as the Head of a particular department(in this case A.A Fatah is Program manager of International relations) this is clearly explained on pg 12, i quote: For each project, OLES starts by identifying both a program manager within it's organisation( the head of one of it's five core programs) and a principal investigator.(NIST & Law Enforcement pdf). Alim A. Fatah is manager of two of the five core programs, which is emphasized on page 14 of the same document. I have corrected the statement accordingly(he is head of I.R at OLES not NIST, this however does not diminish the importance of this position, as you can read on their website's mission statement) --Scoobycentric (talk) 11:47, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. What is this? An attempt to keep the article by information overload and argument exhaustion!? The subject should be commended and, I hope, is getting paid royalties for the inventions, but passes neither WP:PROF nor WP:BIO.--Eric Yurken (talk) 02:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. I have doubts as to the accuracy of the article. The conduct of its proponents has been questionable. Xxanthippe (talk) 05:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC).
 * Comments: How is providing elaborate evidence for your case against deletion an attempt to overload/exhaust or worst 'questionable' conduct? I'm being told he doesn't pass WP:PROF/BIO but nobody elaborates where/why he fails?, i'm disappointed with that, this shouldn't be a 'vote' only with a few cryptic sentences accompanying it. Point by point i have addressed the requirements of WP:PROF and several times i have had to re-iterate a point already answered, giving me the suspicion none of the sources i have provided was actually read. Secondly reliable sources have been dismissed because of the 'proponent for deletion' unfamiliarity with them, which i think is unfair, the equivalant would be for me to dismiss the 'Hindustan times' serving predominantly the Indian community because i know nothing about it.--Scoobycentric (talk) 10:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know anything about the Hindustan Times either, but 10 seconds of Googling tells me it's a major print newspaper in India, not a webpage-only news site with user-submitted content. I don't think sheer unfamiliarity is the problem here. Hairhorn (talk) 12:07, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You turn things around here: it has to be established that the subject of the article is notable. Nobody has to prove on which points he fails notability. The burden of evidence lies with the editor(s) who include material, see WP:PROVEIT. -- Crowsnest (talk) 20:09, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * A reliable source confirming he won a prestigious award has been provided, a reliabe source confirming he is the head of two important positions at OLES(NIST) has been provided. The subject is included in a book entitled Muslims in America by Amir Muhammad, this has also been picked up by several Canadian magazines namely Ottawa's Muslim link(page 10) and United views(page 15). None of these sources have anything to do with Wardheernews(whose reliability has been proven further down below with the promotion of this outlet by several important scholars and political scientists in their research and books) --Scoobycentric (talk) 22:55, 5 June 2009 (UTC
 * You cannot be serious about this: "Did you know's" in two Muslim magazines as a proof he invented the self-adhesive stamp. As shown by Drawn Some, see, forget the self-adhesive stamp regarding notability. And also forget about "head of two important positions at OLES" (Office of Law Enforcements Standards), being one of the four program managers in a small department within NIST with a staff of nine people (2001), 18 people in 2007 (see page vii of this NIST document). This position, in its own, does not provide notability. -- Crowsnest (talk) 08:34, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments: If several sources (two of them quoting a book and the other an interview with the subject in question) claim he invented the self-adhesive postage stamp than i don't see why i shouldn't use it in the article. If i were to investigate this said claim myself and reported the results, this would be Original research which is not allowed, even if it proves the claim or discredits it. The right avenue would be for me to specifically highlight which sources say what. Another book Stamps: Webster’s Quotations, Facts and Phrases‎ has a section on the ATM dispensable self adhesive Postage stamp, where the subject is also credited. And why should one forget about his position as a high ranking member at OLES just because of the low number of staff, when they are an intregal part of US defense against domestic chemical/biological and nuclear warfare?:

''Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear, Radiological, and Explosive (CBRNE) Threats NIST measurements and standards help the nation detect chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear and explosive (CBRNE) threats and prepare to respond to a possible CBRNE attack. The NIST Office of Law Enforcement Standards (OLES) works with federal agencies to evaluate technologies used by the emergency responder and criminal justice communities. OLES works with industry and the emergency responder community to develop communications standards to help emergency responders from different communities and agencies work together effectively at a disaster site. OLES standards help protect emergency responders and enable them to do their jobs more effectively by certifying the performance of protective gear such as body armor and hazardous materials suits. After the attacks, NIST accelerated development of a series of Emergency First Responder Equipment Guides, in conjunction with the National Institute of Justice (NIJ). NIST also accelerated work with the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), and the U.S. Army Soldier Biological and Chemical Command (SBCCOM) to develop the standard for Self Contained Breathing Apparatus to protect emergency responders''.


 * Alim A. Fatah was honored with an award for his contributions in this sector see my earlier post( 19:18, 2 June 2009 (UTC)). Why is his position and this particular department being downgraded when it's clearly not unimportant or non-notable?. --Scoobycentric (talk) 13:43, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * One google books search verifies the respect and notability of Wardheernews amongst Somalist scholars and scholars whose research is related to Somalia, an alert by one member regarding potential malware(some anti-spyware softwares are highly sensative to legitimate innocent ads) is not sufficient(i'm dissappointed nobody honored my small request in reporting back wether they suffered the same as member crowsnest) --Scoobycentric (talk) 13:07, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would add that the interview in question isn't "user-contributed". It was conducted by a Wardheernews staff member (as I've clearly already explained above), which is why its questions are signed "WDN". There is also nothing "questionable" about arguing for the preservation of an article that one knows does not fall under the deletion criteria. In fact, that is what WP:DP expressly instructs editors to do. It also specifies that the discussion process is "not decided through a head count, so participants are encouraged to explain their opinion and refer to policy." Middayexpress (talk) 19:41, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The primary issue with the Wardheernews interview is that it is an interview, which is not a secondary source as required for establishing notability, see my post of 09:41, 3 June 2009 (UTC). So also if this would be a reliable source, it is still of no use with respect to establishing notability. -- Crowsnest (talk) 20:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.