Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/All Things Broadway


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus is that the sources do not meet the requirements of WP:NCORP, and the article cannot stand without sufficient sourcing. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 05:09, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

All Things Broadway

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As a facebook group does not satisfy GNG. As a theater company does not satisfy NCORP. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:19, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions. KCVelaga (talk) 00:41, 22 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep Thank you Barkeep49 for providing your reasons. I also appreciate that you put it in AfD, rather than speedy deletion or proposed deletion. This is an opportunity for me to learn more about notability. I've read Guide to deletion.


 * NCORP says, 'Organizations are considered notable if they meet one of the following sourcing requirements
 * these alternate criteria,
 * the primary criteria for organizations, or
 * the general notability guideline'
 * Thus, All Things Broadway has to satisfy either GNG or NCORP, not both GNG and NCORG.


 * GNG says, 'If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list.'
 * I have found two sources:


 * GNG says '"Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.' In both sources, All Things Broadway is in the title, so it is more than a trivial mention.


 * GNG says '"Reliable" means that sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline.' I am using Broadway World sources in another article after consulting Ian.thomson about suitability. Broadway World is used as a source in many Wikipedia articles. I have checked Broadway Wiz at the Reliable Sources Newsboard and found no objections.


 * GNG says '"Sources" should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. There is no fixed number of sources required since sources vary in quality and depth of coverage, but multiple sources are generally expected. Sources do not have to be available online or written in English. Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability.'
 * On the surface, both appear to be secondary sources. Broadway World lists the author of the article as "BWW News Desk." While the Broadway Wiz source is an interview with the founder of All Things Broadway, I am using the introductory material to support the statement Eliyahu Kheel is the founder. I believe the remaining statements fall within the guidelines for self-published sources.
 * The sources appear to be written from a neutral point of view, one as a news article and the other as an interview. There doesn't appear to be anything that impugns the credibility of either source.
 * I have found two sources, which are 'multiple' in standard English. There is no evidence that these sources almost a year apart are relying on the same source or are from the same author.
 * Unless someone can point me to a policy that specifies a particular number, I am loathe to invest more time until the notability issue has been resolved in favor of retention. There may be additional sources (including the official website) which can be used to fill out the article.


 * GNG says "Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it. For example, advertising, press releases, autobiographies, and the subject's website are not considered independent. ' I found no evidence that either source is connected to All Things Broadway or its founder, Eliyahu Kheel.


 * GNG says, '"Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, that a subject merits its own article. A more in-depth discussion might conclude that the topic actually should not have a stand-alone article—perhaps because it violates what Wikipedia is not, particularly the rule that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. '
 * If All Things Broadway meets the requirements of significant coverage, reliable sources and independent sources, then there is a presumption that it merits an article. The burden is on the proponents for removal to provide reasons, e.g. what Wikipedia is not, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information or that the reliable sources are directories and databases, advertisements, announcements columns, or minor news stories.


 * NCORP says, 'The primary criteria have five components that must be evaluated separately and independently to determine if it is met:
 * significant coverage in
 * multiple
 * independent,
 * reliable,
 * secondary sources.


 * NCORP says, 'Deep or significant coverage provides an overview, description, commentary, survey, study, discussion, analysis, or evaluation of the product, company, or organization.' Both sources provide a description of All Things Broadway.
 * NCORP says, 'Then, there must be multiple of such qualifying sources,' and 'The word "multiple" is not a set number and depends on the type of organization or product.' There are two sources. If 'multiple' has a meaning in this context different from 'two or more,' I'd appreciate a link to a WP policy or guideline.


 * NCORP says, 'A primary test of notability is whether unrelated people with no vested interest in the subject have actually considered the company, corporation, product or service notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial, non-routine works that focus upon it. Self-promotion and product placement are not routes to qualifying for an encyclopedia article. There are two types of independence to consider when evaluating sources:
 * Independence of the author (or functional independence): the author must be unrelated to the company, organization, or product. Related persons include organization's personnel, owners, investors, (sub)contractors, vendors, distributors, suppliers, other business partners and associates, customers, competitors, sponsors and sponsorees (including astroturfing), and other parties that have something, financially or otherwise, to gain or lose.
 * Independence of the content (or intellectual independence): the content must not be produced by interested parties. Too often a related party produces a narrative that is then copied, regurgitated, and published in whole or in part by independent parties (as exemplified by churnalism). Independent content, in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject.
 * I have found no evidence that the author of either source is connected to All Things Broadway nor evidence that the content was produced by interested parties, other than the standard practice of news organizations using a press release.


 * I've already discussed reliability for both sources.


 * NCORP says, 'A secondary source provides an author's own thinking based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event. It contains an author's analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources.' Broadway World is a news article about the production of a show by All Things Broadway. Broadway Wiz is an edited interview with the founder of All Things Broadway.


 * Guide to deletion says 'Before nominating a recently created article, please consider that many good articles started their Wikilife in pretty bad shape. Unless it is obviously a hopeless case, consider sharing your reservations with the article creator, mentioning your concerns on the article's discussion page, and/or adding a "cleanup" template, instead of bringing the article to AfD.') Since the nominator of All Things Broadway AfD did not use the speedy or proposed deletion process, I assume this is not an obviously hopeless case.
 * The nominator chose to bring the article to AfD rather than sharing his/her reservations with me, mentioning his/her concerns on the article's talk page and/or adding a "cleanup" template, even though I mentioned a discussion on notability on the article's talk page. While I'm delighted to hear the views of the editors at AfD, the nominator's failure to first discuss his/her concerns with me would be a reason for resolving a borderline decision in favor of retaining All Things Broadway, as a way of discouraging nominations for AfD without making an effort to discuss concerns with the editor of a recently created article.


 * I've quoted extensively from GNG and NCORG because I am unable to determine how All Things Broadway fails notability. On the article's talk page, I said 'WP:WEBCRIT:


 * "*The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself. This criterion includes reliable published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, television documentaries, websites, and published reports by consumer watchdog organizations"


 * I would appreciate information about any policy I overlooked.'


 * After examining GNG and NCORG, I don't see any additional requirements beyond WEBCRIT. I've spent more time writing about how All Things Broadway meet GNG and NCORG than I did creating All Things Broadway. The fact that I've had to address each requirement of GNG and NCORG demonstrates the value of Guide to deletion. If the nominator of All Things Broadway had followed those suggestions, I could focus my time on addressing specific objections rather than addressing everything.


 * This is the first time I've gone through AfD. I don't know the standards applied at AfD. To play it safe, I had to put in a considerable amount of time reading GNG, NCORG and the procedure for deletion. I would rather go through an AfD before I've put in more time, but I don't think the AfD editors are well served when someone cites "GNG" or "NCORG." There should be a requirement to be more specific.


 * Another consideration is the nominator's formulation, "As a .... As a ..." It fails to consider the notability of a Facebook group interested in Broadway theatre raising money through crowdfunding to produce a show (for a couple of weeks in a small space). That may be notable (in the standard English, not Wikipedian, sense), while being a FB group or being a small theatre company that has performed in some small venues may not be. However, the real fallacy is that NCORG says a group has the option of meeting one of three alternative requirements. At a minimum, the nominator should have specified NCORG primary, NCORG alternative for noncommercial or GNG, both for my convenience and the editors at AfD.


 * With all due respect for the nominator of All Things Broadway for AfD, I believe he/she has incorrectly applied both GNG and NCORG to All Things Broadway. Editors in this discussion should keep in mind that NCORG says an organization only needs to satisfy either GNG or NCORG and that the nominator of All Things Broadway failed to follow the procedure recommended by Guide to deletion. Thank you for your time. Vyeh (talk) 09:17, 22 September 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't normally respond to comments on articles I've nominated for deletion but I want to assure anyone reading this that I have read, multiple times, all of the documents Vyeh is quoting from. In essence the editor is suggesting that there are two sources a & b which prove notability. I suggest neither of these sources are independent (a is a rehashed press release and b is an interview) and further a's topic is not the production company but a play and lacks significance to boot. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:58, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for making an exception and responding, User:Barkeep49. I accept that you have read the documents multiple times. I will focus on the independence of the sources and on the significance of source "a."

For source "a," I believe the issue of independence is whether anyone can put in a press release (a German example) or whether there is a person independent of the generator of the press release, who exercise independent judgment about the press release. Broadway World names 4 individuals as "BWW News Desk": Jessica Khan, Alexa Criscitiello, Julie Musbac, Danielle Ashley. Barkeep's word "rehashed" suggests that one of these individuals edited the press release. The requirement for independence is met if this individual has no personal nor financial relationship to All Things Broadway or Eliyahu Kheel. In the absence of any evidence, this is the proper assumption.

For the significance of source "a,"
 * GNG (see the full quote above) requires the topic be addressed 'directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content.' It says that 'significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.' I believe that a review of the source, particularly the six sentence 4th paragraph shows directness and detail and is more than a trivial mention.
 * NCORP has a long section about significance. I quoted the first sentence above. I submit that the 4th paragraph of the source is an "overview" and "description" of All Things Broadway.

For source "b," there is a 80 word, five sentence introduction before the Q and A, generated by the interviewer, not the subject. I used that introduction to support the assertion that Eliyahu Kheel is the founder of All Things Broadway. It could also be used to support the lede (except for the number of members; since source "b" is a year older than source "a," I used the number from source "a." I probably would have used source "b" in the lede, when I continued working on the article.) I submit there is no evidence that the introductory paragraph was written by Eliyahu Kheel or anyone with a personal or financial relationship to All Things Broadway.

I appreciate that Barkeep49 made an exception to respond to my comment. I had absolutely no intention of creating any doubt that he/she had read GNG and NCORP many times. He/she is correct that I am asserting the two sources support notability. I don't have the burden of showing that the two sources "prove" notability. Notablity is based on the existence of suitable sources, not on the state of sourcing in an article:

"The absence of sources or citations in an article (as distinct from the non-existence of sources) does not indicate that a subject is not notable. Notability requires only the existence of suitable independent, reliable sources, not their immediate presence or citation in an article. Editors evaluating notability should consider not only any sources currently named in an article, but also the possibility or existence of notability-indicating sources that are not currently named in the article. Thus, before proposing or nominating an article for deletion, or offering an opinion based on notability in a deletion discussion, editors are strongly encouraged to attempt to find sources for the subject in question and consider the possibility of existent sources if none can be found by a search.

Wikipedia articles are not a final draft, and an article's subject can be notable if such sources exist, even if they have not been named yet. If it is likely that significant coverage in independent sources can be found for a topic, deletion due to lack of notability is inappropriate. However, once an article's notability has been challenged, merely asserting that unspecified sources exist is seldom persuasive, especially if time passes and actual proof does not surface."

I had only begun to search for reliable sources. I wrote an initial draft of the article from the sources I found. The time I would have spent looking for additional sources for All Things Considered is being consumed defending the article in this AfD. Wikipedia, not me, "strongly" encourages editors to attempt to find sources before "nominating an article for deletion" or offering "an opinion based on notability." I'm assuming Wikipedia is addressing editors offering a negative opinion on notability. If anyone looks for sources, I would appreciate a report, here or on the article's talk page, so I don't have to repeat the searches.

Please note that I have done more than "merely asserting unspecified sources exist." I wasn't expecting an AfD, but I included a note in the edit summary to new page patrollers about a post in the article talk page citing WEBCRIT ("content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself"), on which I was basing notability.

I've already quoted from Guide to deletion (mention reservations to article creator or on article talk page or add cleanup template instead of taking recently created article to AfD).

I am grateful that Barkeep49 has focused the AfD discussion on the independence and significance of source "a" and on the independence of source "b." On those three issues, I've stated my evidence. Note that the burden of proof is on the nominator and editors favoring removal to attempt to find sources and to "consider the possibility of existent sources if none can be found by a search." I respect the work Barkeep49 does for Wikipedia. While I appreciate his/her opinion on independence and significance, my main work has been on two articles, where there was a lack of platinum grade sources. The challenge has been to make editorial judgments about sources. While there have been easy decisions, there have also been decisions requiring a lot of research and thought. As an editor who has had to find sources, my opinion is that the two sources I found are sufficient to "suggest" notability and that they are the tip of the iceberg. Digging deeper will show how big the iceberg is. I hope Barkeep49 respects my opinion. Although our opinions differ, we are each trying to improve Wikipedia. I believe that the evidence supports my opinion and the combination of the recently created status of All Things Broadway and the emphasis of "existence" rather than "presence" creates an almost overwhelming presumption for retaining All Things Broadway. Thank you for your attention. Vyeh (talk) 13:18, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


 *  Weak Delete changed to strong delete, see my response to Vyeh below  Despite the many paragraphs above, I don't see these sources making this subject notable. I searched around on Google, and it didn't bring up much that I think shows the subject to be notable. The group definitely exists, and has a significant following, but I don't believe that constitutes notability. There are a lot of articles about it, although mostly from small blog sites. Vermont (talk) 13:54, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * thank you! "... a lot of articles about it ..." Is it possible to post the URL's of the articles? I'm primarily interested in the ones not from the small blog sites (potential sources), but blogs might lead to sources. Thank you in advance! Vyeh (talk) 15:09, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * , sure!, , . There's also a bit of forum posting and threads online about Island Song, which seems to be the main thing the community did that garnered attention. Vermont (talk) 15:20, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * , I've incorporated your first two URL's into the article. The first source, Show-Score, has a WP page. The second source is written by an expert in musical theatre. There is an exception in RS for blogs written by experts. (I'll spare you a paragraph quote!) Two of his books, including a two volume encyclopedia on musical theater, are used as sources in WP. might want to apply his GNG and NCORP analysis to those sources. (I'm not being sarcastic. I never hoped to have collaboration on All Things Broadway)
 * The third URL happens to use the words "all things Broadway" in the lead post of a 250+ post thread. If you found the FB group in the thread, could you give me the post number?
 * Thank you so much! It was such a surprise and a joy to click on your first two URL's and realize that they are sources. Vyeh (talk) 10:14, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Last night, I found out User:DGG works in the deletion area, either rescuing articles or helping them out the door. He informed me that FB groups are disfavored. He urged me to rewrite the article as a theatre company. I've done so. Vyeh (talk) 09:35, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * After the rewrite, I'm still in favor of deletion. Actually, now that I think of it as a theater company, it's not notable at all. It's preformed less than a dozen times, is mostly crowdfunded from the Facebook group (it isn't a real theater company), and when it did preform received only mild coverage in non-significant sources focusing on the fact it's connected to a Facebook group. Vermont (talk) 09:51, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 14:12, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 14:12, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Theatre-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 14:12, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 14:12, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Tyw7</i> (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 14:12, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. <i style="font-family:'Rock salt','Comic Sans MS'; color: Green;">Tyw7</i> (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 14:12, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. <i style="font-family:'Rock salt','Comic Sans MS'; color: Green;">Tyw7</i> (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 14:12, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Both GNG and NCORG apply "significant" to coverage, not to a source. They exclude "trivial" coverage. WEBCRIT says, "... non-trivial published works whose source ...", which clearly shows the significant/trivial criteria does not apply to the source. I'm confused about "mild." Could you clarify what you mean?
 * As a theatre company, it has performed three times in 6 months. I think that demonstrates they are for real.
 * As for crowd-funding from FB members, one of the sources you provided (an expert who has written a two volume encyclopedia of musical theatre) high-lighted the crowd-funding as the wave of the future. I think the crowd-funding makes the theatre company more, not less, notable.


 * The sources that talk about performances did not focus on the connection to the FB group. Source "a" (BW World): 1st paragraph: "Island Song." 2nd para.: cast and crew. 3rd para.: place, time and ticket price. Last para.: FB group. Source "b" (BW Wiz) was written six months before the first performance, so it is not covered by your assertion. The two sources you provided: SS ("c") mentions ATB as a FB group in the first sentence. The remaining three sentences in the intro talk about the show. Of the five questions, two are about the show, one is about Julian's background, one is about Julian's Broadway show plans and only on is about the FB group. The expert blog ("d"): 1st para.: funding a new musical is daunting. 2nd para.:possibility of crowd-funding as solution. 3rd para.: description of people involved in "Island Song." 4th para.: description of "Island Song." 5th para.: Time, place and ticket prices. The FB group is mentioned in only the first two paragraphs, as the source of funding and as the origin of the theatre company. The additional source: CG ("e"): 1st para.: time, place and ticket prices. 2nd para. 1st sentence: describes FB group. 2nd sentence: describes show.


 * Vermont, I've appreciated your and Barkeep49 comments during this AfD. The article has improved.


 * As a FB group, All Things Broadway wasn't very interesting. The only reason there were multiple sources was because of its activities outside chat space. As the wave of the future, it is more interesting. Hence, there are sources which meet GNG and NCORG.


 * So far, Barkeep49 has only expressed an opinion about "a" and "b". According to the welcome box above the edit area, "valid arguments citing relevant guidelines will be given more weight than unsupported statements." My argument to the nominator's assertion is that "a" is not independent is that there is no evidence of a financial or personal connection between Eliyahu Kheel, the founder of the theatre company and the individuals of the "BWW News Desk." The nominator says "further a's topic is not the production company but a play." The title of the source is "All Things Broadway Presents Carner & Gregor's ISLAND SONG at the Davenport Theatre Loft." All Things Broadway is the first three words. I'd say "a's" topic is both the production company and the play. To the nominator's argument that "a" lacks significance, "a" is clearly more than a trivial mention. My argument to the nominator's assertion that "b" is not independent is that there is no evidence of a financial nor personal relationship between Broadway Wiz and Eliyahu Kheel. The nominator has not yet commented on "c," "d" and "e."


 * If the nominator or anyone else comments on the last day, I ask that I be given 24 hours from the last comment advocating deletion to respond.


 * Regarding Vermont (whom I've found very helpful in writing the article), I believe that the guidelines base notability on sources. If there are no sources meeting the criteria of the guidelines, then a subject is not notable, regardless of an editor's personal feelings. If there are sources meeting the guidelines, that indicates notability.


 * I have tried to ally Vermont concerns by pointing out the frequency and reach of the theatre company's productions.


 * Finally, I've mentioned some procedural issues. Guide_to_deletion lists some steps the nominator should have taken in the case of a newly created article before submitting it to AfD. I've spent a lot of my wiki time responding to this AfD. Seven days is not much time. WP:NEXIST requires editors considering deletion to search for sources (which Vermont did) and to consider the possibility of sources not present in the article. I submit it is possible there are online print reviews (particularly "Island Song") that a diligent editor can find. For another article I've been working on, I've purchased books and CD's and ordered a DVD from the library.


 * For the substantive and procedural reasons I've mentioned, the only proper action at this time is to Keep the article. Barkeep49 or Vermont can renominate the article for deletion in 3 months. Vyeh (talk) 20:52, 27 September 2018 (UTC) Ambox warning pn.svg — Duplicate vote: Vyeh (talk • contribs) has already cast a vote above.
 * Your reasons are not substantive. Nor can you close an AfD, as you imply by saying, "Barkeep49 or Vermont can renominate the article for deletion in 3 months." Your arguments are, in my opinion, not supported or well-founded; they're just extremely long.


 * Anyways, to why I think it should be deleted:
 * The sources, although they may be reliable, are not nearly considered significant coverage. Since being rebranded from a Facebook group to a theater company by the means of it's Wikipedia article, I've been even more convinced in this subject being not notable. There really aren't any reliable references that push this entity over the line of WP:42/GNG. I'll now proceed to go over each source, which is all that has been found in terms of researching All Things Broadway.
 * 1. From the BWW News Desk. The article is clearly an advertisement for Island Song, and does little more than confirm it's existence, ticket prices, and that it's being hosted by All Things Broadway, which it describes by saying "All Things Broadway is a Facebook group with over 62,000 members..." Notice there is no mention of it being a theater company, as it isn't primarily a theater company. This source is used to support the lead sentence, which refers to All Things Broadway as a theater company, which is not mentioned in this reference.
 * 2. Show-score.com interview with Julian Mendoza. Starts out by saying "The Facebook group All Things Broadway..." (again, not referred to as a theater company). After this, it's simply a personal interview about Mendoza's experiences in theater and with the Facebook group. Doesn't confer notability.
 * 3. Listing for their "Miscast" event, again referring to All Things Broadway as a Facebook group, and does little more than advertise a bit and give a link to their website. Doesn't confer notability.
 * 4. markrobinsonwrites.com article. This article hints at possible future notability, referring to All Things Broadway as,"a momentum-building producing organization and theatre company that has produced and performed concerts..." I see this not as evidence of notability but evidence of growing numbers and popularity which will perhaps someday mean notability. It focuses on the crowdfunding which allowed two performances of Island Song. This is not notability; crowdfunding may be "the wave of the future" (Vyeh, above) but it does not mean anyone who engages in crowdfunding is notable. If All Things Broadway perhaps had an original idea in this sense that made them notable, I would expect more than a few non-significant blog posts. Reading this post, it definitely does not seem like an independent, secondary source. It's full of puffery and ends the article with an advertisement of how to buy tickets, when the shows are, and ticket prices.
 * 5. Simply a link to the Island Song project which does little more than confirm its existence.
 * 6. Interview with the founder of the All Things Broadway Facebook group, Eliyahu Kheel. It does not, by any means, confer notability. It simply asks Kheel a few questions, and gives a link to his website. (which is currently a blank HTML document)


 * Overall:
 * There are 6 references, two of which are interviews (not RS's/good for encyclopedic entries), two are listings for shows (merely confirms existence), one is a link to the Island Song project which, again, only confirms existence, and the last is a blog post that hints at possible notability in the future.


 * I'll note that All Things Broadway is primarily a Facebook group, although is also (and less importantly, as it's small and definitely not-notable) a theater company, per their website.


 * After doing this research, I see no reason to keep this article in mainspace. Perhaps it could be draftified or userfied until a date when it may be notable in the future, or outright deleted. I support any option that removes it from the mainspace, as it is currently not a notable entity. I've struck my comments above as I am now in favor of strong delete or otherwise removal from mainspace. Vermont (talk) 23:18, 27 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete. Fails WP:GNG. There are six sources in the article—four of them are ads and two are interviews. I could not find any additional WP:RS coverage. Brad  v  22:51, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. Extremely poor non-independent sourcing, as Bradv sums up nicely. Also wayyyy too much text for an AfD.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 23:20, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete - as not notable.  Operator873 talk connect  23:30, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Vermont, I wasn't closing the AfD. I was proposing (see the box above the edit area) "When discussing an article, remember to consider alternatives to deletion." Give me and other editors interested in the article 3 months to find additional sources. As I've already quoted, there is a guideline against putting a recently created article that can survive speedy deletion (a "hopeless" case) into AfD. For another article I'm working on, I've bought books and CD's. There is another Wikipedia guideline, which I've quoted, that says that initially, you and other editors interested in deletion should consider that good sources exist, even if they aren't present in an article. After awhile, I and other editors interested in retention have to find the sources if notability is challenged. I wasn't casting another vote. I was just high-lighting the word "keep". Anyway, the guidelines for AfD says the decision isn't based on counting votes. The box above the edit area says, "Be aware that using multiple accounts to reinforce a viewpoint is considered a serious breach of community trust, and that commenting on other users rather than the article is also considered disruptive." The red triangle on the summation of my long arguments is improper because it is commenting on me rather than on the merits of the discussion.


 * WP:42 says, This is NOT a Wikipedia policy or guideline; please defer to such in cases of inconsistency with this page. (their bold). Every link and quote I have made is to a Wikipedia policy or guideline.


 * I value your opinion. While we can disagree on whether All Things Broadway is notable, I believe you go too far in asserting that my arguments are not "supported." I have cited Wikipedia policy and guidelines, providing links and quotes, following the guideline in the box above the edit area, "valid arguments citing relevant guidelines will be given more weight than unsupported statements." The links and quotes, along with my asserted facts, are the foundation of my arguments. I suggest that my arguments are "well-founded." I've never asserted that either your arguments nor the arguments of Barkeep49 were not well-founded. I've only suggested that my arguments should be given more weight.


 * I am puzzled at how emphasizing one aspect rather than another can affect your evaluation of notability. l added an additional source. That should not reduce notability.


 * Addressing your comments:
 * 1. BWW News Desk says in the fourth paragraph, fifth sentence, "Now expanded into a theatre company based in Manhattan, ..." That is a mention of a theatre company. The lead sentence of the article is "All Things Broadway is a theatre company based in New York City, New York."
 * 2. Show-Score.com. Both NCORP and GNG have the essentially the same requirements for a source used to support notability: (1) significant coverage, (2) reliable and (3) independent of the subject. I assert that Show-Score.com meets these requirements. I used the source for (1) the songs that Julian Mendoza was singing, (2) that the FB group included theatre fans and (3) that Eliyahu Kheel founded the FB group.
 * 3. Listing for Miscast. I think you are questioning "significance." The requirement is sometimes stated as "non-trivial," which I think it meets. I used it for "On April 3, 2018, it performed "Miscast" at the Laurie Beechman Theatre." I also used it for "Currently it is the largest Facebook group."
 * 4. markrobinsonwrites.com. You mentioned that it doesn't seem "independent, secondary." There is no evidence of a financial nor personal relationship between Mark Robinson and Eliyahu Kheel. The source is clearly not primary nor tertiary. You also mention "non-significant." With five long paragraphs devoted to Island Song, and All Things Broadway, the coverage is significant.
 * 5. Island Song project. I used it to support that the musical was "about five New Yorkers." The source starts a summary of the musical with "Five New Yorkers." I haven't used it in this discussion to support notability.
 * 6. Interview with Eliyahu Kheel. I am asserting that it is significant coverage, reliable and independent. I use the introductory material (which negates "simply") to support "Eliyahu Kheel founded the group" and Eliyahu Kheel's answers to support "He formed the group because his friends were annoyed with his up to ten daily Broadway postings, never expected it to grow beyond a hundred members and is currently reaching out to the professional Broadway community."
 * Interviews are usable in Wikipedia for quotes and for non-contentious facts, e.g. the songs Julian Mendoza sang. Reliability is a function of the publisher. E.g. if the New York Times publishes an interview, it can be used to support a quote by the interviewee.
 * On listings, BWW News Desk is not a listing. Its four paragraphs describe the show, the cast, time, place, ticket price, the FB group and the theatre company. I used the listing for Miscast to confirm existence and to support that All Things Broadway is the largest FB group. I use the link to the Island Source project for a summary of Island Song. The blog post is permitted under the expert exception and meets the requirements for a source supporting notability: significant coverage, reliable and independent of the subject. The All Things Broadway website says "All Things Broadway has also recently expanded into a theatre company performing at the 54 Below, the Laurie Beechman Theatre and the musical Island Song at the Davenport Theatre Loft." It has produced three shows in 6 months, which is prolific for a theatre company. Notability is based on sources, not on an editor's assessment of a subject's importance.
 * We have discussed five sources. Wikipedia policy says that we should consider additional sources that may exist. Proponents for retention of an article are given a reasonable time to locate those sources. I've previously quoted those policies. The article was was erroneously referred to AfD. I've quoted the relevant policy governing newly created articles and AfD. While Vermont is entitled to change his opinion after a more thorough examination of the evidence (and I applaud that he searched for sources), I am puzzled at how starting with the theatre company aspect rather than the group aspect would affect his opinion of the entity's notability. In both versions, it is the same entity.
 * I really (and sincerely) thank Vermont for the attention he has put into All Things Broadway. I'm trying to get another article peer reviewed and there is a backlog. What a luxury to get a review for All Things Broadway at the beginning.


 * Thank you, Bradv, ThatMontrealIP and Operator873 for your comments. Bradv, I've already exhaustively analyzed Vermont characterize those sources as two listings (I have argued one is much more), a link and a blog post. Thank you for searching for additional sources.
 * ThatMontrealIP I've already addressed independence. And I think five sources do not constitute "extremely poor" sourcing. As to the amount of text, Barkeep49 originally only cited NGN and NCORG, forcing me if I wanted the article to remain to address each and every point.
 * Operator873 The box above the edit area says, "All input is welcome, though valid arguments citing relevant guidelines will be given more weight than unsupported statements." Vyeh (talk) 14:04, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Vyeh, your comments in this AfD total over 5,000 words thus far. (Yes I ran them through a word counter.) Please read WP:BLUDGEON, and consider not writing anything more. Destroying an AFD with huge blocks of text is disruptive editing. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 21:24, 28 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete TL;DR - sourcing is poor, and a targeted Google search using most common NY City publications yields nothing. Fails WP:GNG. <b style="color:#7F007F">TimTempleton</b> <sup style="color:#800080">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  23:11, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment  (1) NCORP and the GNG are not separate rules. NCORPis the manner in which the GNG is interpreted when  dealing with articles on organizations: it specifies more exactly what we mean by references providing substantial coverage from third-party independent reliable sources, not press releases or mere announcements . (Actually, in my opinion its provision always applied, and are in general applicable to all uses of the GNG--the guideline was established in order to clarify the rules for articles in a frequently  challenged field, where there was special concern that standards were not being met.
 * (2)More important, the article seems to have now been completely rewritten to make it about the theatre company, not the facebook group (this was at my suggestion--I was asked for advice at a WM-NYC meeting). This means that all judgements based on its initial state need to be reconsidered.., ,.
 * I am for the time being not giving an opinion about keeping or deleting. But,, please be concise. Most of us discussing here know the rules--your job is to show that the article meets them by explaining why the sources are reliable for notability.  DGG ( talk ) 23:49, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
 * With the rewrite it is still lacks independent reliable sourcing to establish notability. The current sources are personal web sites, event announcements, interviews and the like. Not notable. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 01:07, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I’ll note that ThatMontrealIP, TimTempleton, and Bradv !voted delete after the article was rewritten to focus on the theater company aspect. Vermont (talk) 01:39, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Confirm that my nomination and defacto !vote of delete stands. When I nominated this article Special:Diff/860622454 a claim for it being a theater company was already present and something I examined in my WP:BEFORE and included in my nomination statement. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:54, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
 * A further note that I don't think there's any basis in policy, guideline, or well respected essay to suggest that any of the users noted above need to reconsider their !votes in order to be considered when someone (hopefully an admin) judges consensus here, regardless of when they !voted. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:45, 29 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment:, your incessant and massively over-the-top and repetitive walls of text in this discussion are working massively against you. Please stop that, and for future reference, don't repeat this behavior anywhere else on Wikipedia if you want to be taken seriously. As it is, the subject seems to be merely an aficionado group that has performed a few times. Insufficiently notable for Wikipedia's purposes, and even scrupulous searching fails to come up with sufficient independent coverage. Perhaps it is possible that this group may become sufficiently notable in a few years (although I doubt it). If you believe that may be possible, you might want to keep a copy of the article somewhere for future reference. I wouldn't count on it though; and it's best just to be graceful and realize that something you have put a lot of energy into does not meet Wikipedia's strict standards. It happens to all of us at one point or another. Softlavender (talk) 04:37, 29 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.