Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allison Cook (Miss Oregon) (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The "keep" opinions don't address the "delete" arguments.  Sandstein  07:25, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Allison Cook (Miss Oregon)
AfDs for this article: 
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Non-notable pageant winner (winning a state title does not confer notability), fails WP:GNG, article also has issues with WP:COI as it appears the subject herself has been an editor { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 23:01, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 23:08, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Beauty pageants-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 23:08, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Oregon-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 23:08, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep Jjj1238 wrote "Non-notable pageant winner (winning a state title does not confer notability)" Calling the pageant winner "Non-notable" begs the question.  Isn't this what the discussion is supposed to find out? "winning a state title does not confer notability." It doesn't? Most people would think it does. Is there a Wikipedia policy on beauty pageant winners? --23mason (talk) 16:32, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * WikiProject Beauty Pageants agrees that a state title winner is not notable enough for an article. "Winners of sub-national level pageants" are included in who is not automatically notable. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 13:50, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Outside of the fact that some of these statements rely on her own website and those should be removed, the rest are significant coverage in non-tabloid sources. I don’t see the issue. Trillfendi (talk) 02:41, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Contrary to the bald assertions of the keep votes, we have consistently held that winning beauty contests at the state level does not grant automatic notability. The sourcing here does not show any other sign of notability and just winning a state contest is not enough to make someone notable. That has been determined though a whole bunch of deletion discussion. The one event coverage we get when someone wins a beauty contest is just not the type to justify having an article on someone, we need coverage beyond the one event.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:12, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * What about the coverage by reliable sources. Is that a general notability requirement?--23mason (talk) 12:39, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Note that there are pageants that may match some or all of the above criteria but would nonetheless pass the general notability guideline, such as Miss Tibet."
 * Delete Doesn't clear the WP:SIGCOV in WP:NS/WP:IS bar. Doesn't clear the pageant winner bar either — Ad Meliora Talk∕Contribs 16:11, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Quick Google searches provided enough data/added links to clear WP:SIGCOV. State winners move onto Miss America or Miss USA which are nationally televised events, significant coverage bar is cleared.  However, there appears to be WP:COI.  Subjects should not be editors.  I do not see any clear issues with WP:NPOV], but page warrants review.  The argument for WP:GNG is interesting.  Are beauty pageant state winners not notable to the people of the state?  Most people would think so... especially considering they move on to a national contest that is watched by millions of people each year.  Also, perhaps this is just the OCD in me, but missing pages disables the link for preceded by and succeeded by.  If anyone researches past winners, they will have to navigate to he master event page instead of simply clicking on the succeeded by or preceded by links.  As a user, I dislike hitting dead ends.  Powwowz (talk) 16:08, 24 October 2020 (UTC)Powwowz
 * WikiProject Beauty Pageants have clear standards for notability. Being a state winner of a pageant is not notable. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] }</b> 16:41, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * } I have been struggling with the concept of presumed notability especially when comparing the bullets: "Non-notable pageants, absent other general notability criteria, are often characterized by: 1)A single competition with no significant system of qualifying pageants 2) Primarily for the selection of a commercial or corporate mascot/model/spokesperson 3)Not a qualifying pageant for a higher level competition 4) Lack of longevity: either very new, or discontinued after a relatively short run 5) Minimal, local, or no television/media coverage

After reviewing these points, I interpret state winners who in turn become participants in a nationally televised competition (and established event) to hold some notability... this is a gray area. Whereas winners of the Big 4 are nearly always guaranteed to be notable. I reviewed the toggle for preceded by succeeded by to confirm both had pages that were not up for deletion as another litmus test for notability. --Powwowz (talk) 17:25, 24 October 2020 (UTC)Powwowaz
 * I believe you are misinterpreting the guidelines. Competing in a pageant never confers notability, it is winning a pageant that does. For a girl to win Miss America or Miss USA, she becomes notable. Winning a state title, competing in Miss USA, and losing, does not. <b style="color: #AB2B2B;">{ [ ( jjj</b> <b style="color: #000000;">1238 ) ] }</b> 20:03, 24 October 2020 (UTC)


 * That's the thing... I get a clear idea for what nearly always constitutes notable. i.e. Winning a Big 4 contest.  However, I do not see it expressly written that state pageants are not notable.  The line Winners of sub-national level pageants or subsidiary awards (e.g., Miss Virgin Islands, Miss Congeniality, Miss World Beach Beauty) are usually not notable for such per se is an indicator, but there is the word usually which indicates that a rule is not set in stone.  I very well could be misinterpreting guidelines.  My logic was to use the 5 bullets as a rubric for indicators on non-notable pageants.  The analysis leads to me to lean towards state competitions as mostly being notable.  1) A girl must win a community competition to compete in a state contest.  Bar met.  2) State winners travel through multiple communities in the state to volunteer and advocate for their own interests instead of serving as a corporate or commercial spokesperson.  Bar met. 3) There could be an argument that state winners are winners as they serve the community for a 1 year term.  However, I think this is not inline with the spirit of the bar set as girls compete in a larger national event that is 100% notable.  This is gray, but I argue bar not met.  4) Lack on longevity.  Wikipedia page confirms that the Oregon state event has been held since 1947 whereas other states have a longer tradition.  Bar met.  5) State winners receive statewide coverage.  All national coverage for the Miss America competition CANNOT be counted as that relates to bullet 2 and the need to win -not participate.  Is statewide coverage local?  If a girl wins a competition in her small town, so she can compete in a state contest and wins.  When coverage is statewide as opposed to her small town is that still local?  Honestly, I don't know.  This is simply a devil's advocate question.  This being said, I interpret local as pertaining to a small community - perhaps a city or county.  Given the relative size of a state, I argue bar met.

I interpret 4 of 5 non-qualifier bars to be passed; however, if the data is to be believed, 25,000 miles traveled and 330 events attended as the titleholder, the state winner appears to garner some notability. I have never been to a pageant, but I have seen Miss America on TV as well as state winners introduced at fairs and rodeos. A state titleholder must be notable for some people otherwise they wouldn't be introduced. For these reasons something just doesn't feel right about determining that the position is non-notable. What has stare decisis determined? A quick glance shows that several state winners currently have pages. Are there metrics on how many state pageant winners' pages have been reviewed? How many similar occurrences are deleted vs kept? What logic was used as the determining factor for state winners? --Powwowz (talk) 22:31, 24 October 2020 (UTC)Powwowz <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   17:07, 26 October 2020 (UTC) <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep Why is this even a question? Omniscientmoose42 (talk) 17:19, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete She won one lower-level pageant and now works at GE in a non-notable position. She could at most be a line in a list of pageant winners... Oaktree b (talk) 19:49, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Being beautiful and tall and a minor contest winner does not meet the critiera of WP:N. Sources are more casual mentions rather than in-depth articles on anything.  Her website appears to be support for working toward influencer status.  I agree with @Oaktree_b on this one.10Sany1? (talk) 20:31, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  11:18, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Non-notable state pageant winner, there's a smattering of coverage but it's all general "someone won a state pageant" coverage, not otherwise notable. SportingFlyer  T · C  13:17, 3 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.