Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aman (Tolkien)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Valinor.  Sandstein  09:00, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Aman (Tolkien)

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Another minor place from the Tolkienverse that is all WP:PLOT and seems to fail GNG/WP:NFICTION. The sources imply there is "more", but they are either primary or incorrect. I checked Tolkien Encyclopedia and it does not have an entry for Aman; page 377 has an entry for "Languages of Aman" which does not discuss the fictional place. Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopaedia does have an entry for Aman, but it is a short paragraph that's 100% plot, see. As for The Dictionary of Imaginary Places, I cannot get access to a copy to confirm what's written there, so I'd appreciate if someone could comment, but I very much doubt it goes beyond a plot summary. BEFORE for other sources reveal only brief plot summaries. It does not appear this fictional place has been analyzed in any significant way. At best, per SOFTDELETE/PRESERVE I can recommend redirecting to Geography of Middle-earth. Comments? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:01, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  08:01, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  08:01, 15 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, it's easy to agree that the article is in a sorry state without scholarly citations. However, Aman is important for an understanding of the Geography of Middle-earth, which at the moment is a sad little paragraph of five short sentences inside Middle-earth; what is needed is a full-length Geography article with a substantial section on Aman and an explanation of how the world changed from flat (men could sail to Valinor on "The Lost Straight Road") to round (the seas are now "sundered" and sailing just takes men's ships round and round the earth; quite the earth-melting geological disturbance, to say the least). So, at the bare minimum, a merge (soft redirect) would work; it implies that the target Geography of Middle-earth becomes an actual article, from the current redirect. There are plenty of scholarly sources on Middle-earth's geography, and indeed plenty on Tolkien's treatment of Heaven, Paradise, (Im)mortality, and the Afterlife. That might indeed enable someone to write a decent article on Aman, I'll think whether I want to mount a rescue effort, though all that should be necessary right now to save the article would be a list of half-a-dozen good sources. One is




 * --- Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:28, 15 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Are you sure about that page count? Google preview for the index of the 2014 edition lists Aman as mentioned on pages 232, 249, 287 and 288. More worrisome is that I couldn't find any discussion of Aman on those pages ouside a passing mention here and there, all pure WP:PLOT. Did you find any in-depth discussion in your edition on the pages you list? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  11:27, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, the pages are correct for the 2005 edition. There are ALSO isolated pages 263 and 283, but this is the section I have named which is about the topic (origins in Atlantis, Pearl, Irish 'Imram' tales; reshaping of the earth).


 * Hammond & Scull note that Tolkien used many names for Aman: Blessed Realm, Far West, Otherworld, True West, Undying Lands, Uttermost West, the West, World's End; and it contains two major parts: the elves' Eldamar, and the Valar's Valimar or Valinor (this last discussed by many scholars). All of these are potential search terms. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:50, 15 March 2020 (UTC)




 * BTW Drout's J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia has two chapters on Aman:


 * and one by Drout himself on Eldamar, same volume, page 145.
 * and one by Drout himself on Eldamar, same volume, page 145.


 *  Keep  - there are multiple reliable scholarly sources covering the topic, including those cited above. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:52, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Middle-earth. Existing sources seem lacking. I do support the creation of Geography of Middle-earth. TTN (talk) 17:24, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * -- I've just listed six reliable sources (and added them to the article, though that shouldn't strictly be necessary; I may rewrite the article also, but that's not the criterion for notability). Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:27, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Of those I searched, I see plot descriptions being the bulk of the coverage. Seems like a minor topic that should be mentioned within the wider topic of "Geography of Middle-earth." TTN (talk) 17:38, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Sigh. I will spell it out in the text using the scholarly sources, such as Drout's observation of the similarity with the poem Pearl, just added. This will take a bit of time. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:48, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Chiswick Chap, are you confusing Valinor and Aman (Tolkien)? I have Tolkien Encyclopedia, I checked it and it doesn't discuss Aman except passing mentions in 2-3 places (including in the entries you mentioned). But those are mentions in passing and purely plot summaries. You can't seriously argue that a source that discusses Valinor can be used to keep Aman because they are related. WP:NOTINHERITED. Such concepts can be discussed in a geography article, we don't need fancrufty, 100% plot-based subarticles that do nothing but recount fictional plot. But please, if I missed it, do spell it out - better, please quote - content which discusses Aman not as a plot summary but through some sort of scholarly analysis. Such as "Aman is a metaphor for..." or "In constructing Aman, Tolkien used real world poem X and legend of Z".--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:46, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Valinor is a major part of Aman. I have already gone beyond the call of duty in adding sources and critical commentary. Your suggestions are splendid for GA, of course. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:01, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * "Valinor is a major part of Aman". Which is exactly the point WP:NOTINHERITED is concerned with. If sources discuss Valinor, it may be notable, and whatever Valinor is a part of, it is not discussed by said sources, is not. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:07, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * See below. Purely for the record, you'd be 100% right, but for the fact, which I was gradually creeping up on realizing when I wrote the above reply, that Tolkien himself used "Aman" when he meant "Valinor". That of course means that a merge is in order: again, see below. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:33, 17 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep per the many secondary sources provided by Chiswick Chap. -- Toughpigs (talk) 17:32, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Neither of which has been shown so far to go beyond plot, and some may not even mention Aman (per confusion with Valinor). But hey, WP:GOOGLEHITS for the win. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  02:48, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Absolutely no Googlehitting has been attempted! The sources have already been used complete with paraphrasing and quotations to demonstrate actual scholarly interest. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:01, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Chiswick Chap, I didn't realize you expanded the article with Aman_(Tolkien). I read it now, it is a valuable section and I commend you on adding this information, but... errr... I can't help but notice it doesn't even mention (currently) the word Aman. I certainly think the section you wrote needs to be preserved somewhere in this project, but I still don't think the sources you found are about Aman. NOTINHERITED remains a concern; as far as I can tell, Aman is not significantly relevant to those discussions. Ex. "The Tolkien scholar Michael D. C. Drout comments that Tolkien's accounts of Eldamar "give us a good idea of his conceptions of absolute beauty,"[7] and notes that these resemble the paradise described in the Middle English poem Pearl. " All nice and encyclopedic and I am seeing zero connection to Aman. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:05, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Please stop messing with my username. Eldamar is a major part of Aman. Analogy: a book on London's importance as a business centre is a valid source for a discussion of England's economy. Glad you've noted the contribution, thanks for that. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:14, 16 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Merge to Valinor, the sources found are good, if a little plot-focused, but they confer notability onto Valinor, not Aman, similar to the situation with Rohan and Rhovanion. This is exactly the sort of situation where NOTINHERITED applies. Devonian Wombat (talk) 10:37, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I've added Kelly & Livingston 2009 which explicitly compares Númenor's attempt to capture Aman to the story of the Tower of Babel (men try to reach heaven, get destroyed). You won't need lots of block capitals for that. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:54, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

*Keep I do have to admit that part of me wonders at the reliance on one scholar to explore Aman and Elbareth as the female opposition to the male Mordor and Sauron. I would really like to see evidence that multiple schoalrs have supported the ideas bounced around. However this has clearly been the subject of scholarly discussion so we need to keep it. Editing is probably in order, deletion is not.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:00, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment I wonder if Lewis' off hand mention that one who wants to understand Numenor and the True West should consult Tolkien's work found in That Hideous Strength could function as a secondary source. It would not seem a substantial one. However I think we need to make sure our searches for sources bear in mind that even though Tolkien did not use Aman widely, he has lots of mentions to this place. Such as the fact he refers to it as Faerie in the Hobbit.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:57, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge in some way with Valinor. I do not think two seperate articles are justified. Probably in the long run merge Valinor in here, but either way will work. I do not think we have enough secondary discussion to justify two articles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:02, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * This article at present has much better secondary sourced discussion than Valinor. I do have to say, I would like these secondary source discussions more if we had a much broader base of discussion or evidence that the people making statements about themes were doing more than just spouting their only individual interpretations of the text.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:03, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Merge: Well, I think I've finally found the answer here. The Encyclopedia of Arda (not itself an RS) quotes Tolkien on Aman: "Chiefly used as the name of the land in which the Valar dwelt [i.e. Valinor]." It rightly points out that "Chiefly" is a bit of a giveaway: Tolkien is accepting that he used "Aman" inconsistently, but stating that most of the time he was referring not to Aman-the-whole-continent but to its most important constituent, Valinor (something like saying "the Palace" when you mean "the King", a suspicion that had been growing on me): and since the Elves had been allowed to live there, that land included Eldamar. It seems that even Tolkien found this confusing, so I think we are all forgiven in this case. We should merge this with Valinor, mentioning that "Aman" is also the name of the continent. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:20, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment. I am fine with a merge to Valinor. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:41, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge to Valinor as suggested above, that seems to be the best way to handle this. Hog Farm (talk) 19:17, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge with Valinor Aman is only known as the location of Valinor. &#8213; Susmuffin Talk 10:50, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge with Valinor. Goustien (talk) 15:19, 20 March 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.