Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/American football in the Netherlands


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Good work by and  for finding new references and for gidonb for adding them to the article. Mojo Hand (talk) 17:54, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

American football in the Netherlands

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Unreferenced since 2006, no corresponding NL wiki article, not easy to search for but no significant coverage that I could see in reliable sources. I do see some coverage of individual games on sites like americanfootballinternational.com, but this is not clearly a reliable source (seems to be an amateur site possibly) and anyway does not say much about the game in the Netherlands per se. All the other articles related to this topic (American football in the Netherlands) also appear to be basically unreferenced. FOARP (talk) 16:51, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:14, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Netherlands-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:14, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Preliminary comment. The article has been around for 15 years and, despite longevity, nobody has cared enough to add sources, and it remains completely unsourced. That pushes me a bit toward the "delete" side. On the other hand, this article is the parent article for several other articles on American football in the Netherlands, including Tulip Bowl (championship game played annually since 1985), American Football Bond Nederland (the governing body in the Netherlands), AFBN Eredivisie (top division league), and articles on multiple teams (Delft Dragons, Amsterdam Admirals, Amsterdam Crusaders, 010 Trojans, Maastricht Wildcats) as well as a List of American football teams in the Netherlands. This makes me wonder if American football in the Netherlands truly is a notable topic that simply needs improvement (or possibly consolidation with related articles). Cbl62 (talk) 18:07, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * My issue looking at all the Netherlands American Football articles is that they also lack reliable sourcing. Maybe sources are out there? But nothing I saw supported this general topic. FOARP (talk) 18:33, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. Extremely notable. See for example: Gersen, Peter (25-03-1985) American football in Nederland voorlopig een gespleten opzet. Trouw. Via Delpher, 09-01-2022. gidonb (talk) 01:11, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi gidonb, thanks for this. I agree that this is obviously significant coverage of the subject. Can you find another article like that so we've got a WP:GNG pass? EDIT: I guess this might do. FOARP (talk) 11:25, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Correct! Kudos for your research skills in a foreign language! gidonb (talk) 11:59, 9 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete: There are no references. On top of that, the page reads like a magazine op-ed. The subject does not fall under any defacto rule - there must be reliable, independent sources to validate all of the information in the page. Multi7001 (talk) 03:09, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Have you considered the existence of sources elsewhere, like the one I quote? Your opinion fails WP:NEXIST. Dutch-language sources count towards notability, just like English-language sources. gidonb (talk) 03:29, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There are no references in the page that discuss the subject. Moreover, the topic of a very popular Western sport within a populated European nation is too broad and I don't see the point of having its own page in the articlespace. American football is practiced in all areas of the world. Perhaps this can be summarized to a few sentences or a few paragraphs and added in the American football page, or in the Netherlands page - under the culture section. Multi7001 (talk) 05:09, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Have you studied WP:NEXIST by now? Whether or not there are sources in the article does not matter! gidonb (talk) 06:10, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * This may be a TNT case though, since as it stands the entire article is original research. There's also the problem with over-lap with other articles (e.g., the American Football Bond Nederland) meaning merging might be a better solution than keeping. Since it looks like there are some sources I think someone who understands the language needs to give the article a heavy edit (e.g., delete most of the content and start over) so we can avoid that. FOARP (talk) 11:24, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, FOARP, for a serious response! I think that the base has been written by or otherwise inspired an enthusiast, who later started a blog on American Football in the Netherlands. The text has passed a lot of scrutiny over time, also on the Dutch Wikipedia, where it is an addendum to the main American football article. I do not think WP:TNT is needed and, for sure, the WP:GNG has been met. Withdrawal would be my recommendation. The relevant warnings were already in the article and WP articles are never finished. The organization meets WP:ORG and has different content. gidonb (talk) 18:11, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * gidonb, there must be reliable sources in existence; I understand that they don't necessarily have to be cited. However, in this case, I only found sources for some of the info about the subject that may warrant its own page in the articlespace. The sources and information I found makes the case for some of the information to be merged into existing pages about American football and/or sports in Netherlands. Perhaps there are more sources in Dutch to validate the information in the page, but that requires foreign translation. Multi7001 (talk) 20:06, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Multi7001. Closing editor, please take note. gidonb (talk) 21:51, 9 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Redirect to American Football Bond Nederland. This is a notable topic, but as it stands the article would need to be greatly improved and reference in order to stand. Redirecting it to the main league is probably the best option at this point. ~ EDDY  ( talk / contribs )~ 21:21, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I understand the logic of the redirect, but it's an imperfect solution since AFBN is a narrower topic. As an example, the current, broader article includes non-AFBN leagues and teams.  Of particular importance, the broader topic includes the NFL Europe and the Amsterdam Admirals. The Admirals played in two World Bowls and are arguably the most important American football team ever to play in the Netherlands ... it's the only Dutch team I had ever heard of. Cbl62 (talk) 23:57, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee  //  have a ☕️ //  beans  // 05:02, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep per the sources on Delpher found by Gidonb and FOARP above Mujinga (talk) 20:48, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 08:26, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep the article as it is a notable topic and subject, worthwhile of inclusion and passing WP:GNG. However, I would strongly urge re-writing the content of the article.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:22, 19 January 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.