Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Andrus Mitt


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Stifle (talk) 17:46, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Andrus Mitt

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Article about a footballer who fails WP:GNG and who has not played in a fully pro league. He has apparently played for Estonia's national beach soccer team, but I don't believe that generates sufficient coverage to grant notability. Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following articles for the same reason. Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:46, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:47, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions.  Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:47, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:50, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete - they fail WP:GNG, and WP:NFOOTBALL is irrelevant. Beach ball is not the same as football and the same rules don't apply. Additionally, the references do clearly not go into non-trivial detail of the players. (sorry for adding this comment at the top, but I was unsure where the last comment ended. Feel free to move it to the proper place) Cheezburgerboy (talk) 10:49, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete - all players fail both WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 17:55, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You're wrong, maybe you check again? Pelmeen10 (talk) 12:04, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Strong keep Read Notability (sports) and WikiProject Football/Notability again! If playing in association national football team makes person notable, then playing in beach soccer national team makes also. You can't follow the "has not played in a fully pro league" rule and ignore that they have represented national team. This Afd is really non-sense. Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * May I suggest you read WP:NSPORT also. It explicitly states that it is a presumption of notability and not a guarantee. All three of these fail WP:GNG which is prerequisite to meeting WP:NSPORT. Furthermore, WP:NSPORT says absolutely nothing about beach soccer. The reason the national team clause is in there is because the national football teams generally generate a lot of coverage. The same cannot be said for beach soccer national teams. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:00, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think they fail WP:GNG, they have refs. If it is needed, I could add some more. And beach soccer generates enough coverage. Do you want to say that there should be no articles about beach soccer players? Pelmeen10 (talk) 22:11, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Once again, I point you at WP:NSPORT. With one exception, all the sources listed on these articles are database entries, which WP:NSPORT explicitly defines as trivial, or match reports which are equally trivial and therefore insufficient for granting notability. The one exception does not even mention the players in question. Sir Sputnik (talk) 23:09, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Now you have to take your words back. They are nicely referenced and don't fail WP:GNG. There are no database entries' sources. I don't understand why would you like to delete those articles. Haven't you thought about it takes away people's motivation to contribute to Wikipedia. Pelmeen10 (talk) 21:53, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You're improvements to the article are certainly a step in the right direction. I still don't think it's enough but it's very close. To explain my reasoning, I am going to provide my evalutation of the sources currently listed in the articles.

Andrus Mitt: Source 1: Only a passing mention of the player in question, insufficient to establish notability, but probably not intended for that.
 * Shows that he was nr 3 top scorer in the league and played for Augur/Betoon. This page is the official Estonian Beach Soccer Association, which also covers Rannajalgpalli Meistriliiga. Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Source 2: Interview with the player. In depth, and detailed, clearly not trivial. This is kind of source that can establish notability. Source 3: Short article. Certainly a useful source, but fails WP:NTEMP in my opinion. External Links: Both are database entries, and therefore not relevant to notability.
 * It is a part of long interview (which got lost from Estonian Beach Soccer Association site when new homepage was opened). Maybe this ref is unnecessary? Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Antti Arst: Source 1: Database entry, see above.
 * SK Augur's homepage is not actually simply a database. There are news and lots of info about beach soccer, futsal etc. This ref supports achievements, number of national games and height/weight. Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Source 2: A series of match reports with only passing mentions of the player. Not enough for notability. Source 3: Database entry. The prose in this profile makes it a bit better than your average player profile, but still trivial.
 * Database?? This ref actually covers his career in USA 2003-2006. Quite good, I think.Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Source 4: An interesting source. It explicitly points out that Futsal is not professional. Again, its the kind of detailed source that can establish notability, but not its own.
 * Yes it is good ref. And don't forget that Arst has played for beach soccer national team. Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

But source 5-7? Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC) External Link: Database entry. Not relevant. Andreas Aniko: Source 1: Detailed coverage of the subject. This a good source. Source 2: I don't really see how a profile of Andrus Mitt is relevant not only to notability, but to the article in general.
 * This ref shows that he plays for Tallinna Kalev, I could put it in external links. Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Source 3: Again, this source does not mention the player in question. It does not confirm the information it is intended to.
 * Again what? But yes, you are right. I removed it. Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Source 4: Certainly useful in terms of its content, but this source also fails WP:NTEMP.
 * Could you explain more closer. Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Source 5: List of match reports. Trivial. External Link: Database entry.

In each case there is one source that indicates the player in question may pass WP:GNG, but one source is never enough establish notability. I would also like to see the content of these sources synthesised into the articles, but that's just a request, and has no bearing on notability. Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:45, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you expect all refs to grant notability? Anyway, definitely more than one grants it. In my opinion national team appearances themselves grant notability. Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:01, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, J04n(talk page) 04:44, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions. feydey (talk) 12:42, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Keep. At first blush, an article on the third highest scorer in Estonian beach soccer seems pretty obscure and trivial. However, after reading the beach soccer article and considering Pelmeen10's arguments and improvements to the article, for me the gentleman is (barely) notable enough to merit an article. I can't believe I'm defending the 'third highest scorer in Estonian beach soccer' but there you have it. --Quartermaster (talk) 13:40, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.