Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Andy Higgins (footballer born 1993)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. This discussion has died out without a clear consensus being formed. Perhaps a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports) concerning league cup matches is in order to clarify things. J04n(talk page) 11:20, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Andy Higgins (footballer born 1993)

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He has not played a professional senior game at club or international level. Article fails WP:NFOOTBALL. Also fails WP:GNG. Simione001 (talk) 23:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Simione001 (talk) 23:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. Simione001 (talk) 23:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Simione001 (talk) 23:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 *  Comment Keep He has played a senior game at club level in the League Cup.ref Special situation, I know, but is that above or below the bar of WP:NFOOTBALL? The League Cup doesn't seem to be mentioned on WP:FPL. The-Pope (talk) 03:27, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Cup games don't count especially not the league cup... FA Cup just maybe. In any case the fact is he hasn't played a senior pro league game.Simione001 (talk) 04:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Why not? Is this "rule" stated anywhere?  League cup seems to be less prestigious that the FA Cup, but unlike the FA Cup, it only includes fully pro teams? The-Pope (talk) 06:15, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:NFOOTBALLSimione001 (talk) 08:46, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Whilst I can see a lawyer trying to interpret "playing in a fully professional league" as implying by omission that Cup comps don't count, is that what was really intended? To me a Cup competition consisting of only fully professional teams fulfils the requirement of being a fully professional league.  Surely this isn't the first time this has been tested?  Are there precedents? The-Pope (talk) 12:26, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * A league game is a league game and a cup game is a cup game. simple as that. They do not overlapSimione001 (talk) 12:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep - Yes cup games do count if it features two fully pro teams. So he 100% meets WP:NFOOTBALL. – Michael (talk) 07:07, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - Players who have appeared, and managers who have managed, in a fully professional league, will generally be regarded as notable. Cant be anymore clear than this. clearly states league games. Where is the confusion coming from?Simione001 (talk) 07:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Guidelines are written with the best intentions, but they can never cover all the possible scenarios. Unless evidence can be shown that this was discussed and deliberately worded in this way to exclude cup games, you now have both Michael and myself thinking that a cup game between two pro teams is notable. The-Pope (talk) 07:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Why not officially add this to WP:NFOOTBALL criteria to stop future proposal for deletion? I have seen many such proposals. Simione001 (talk) 09:53, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 09:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep - meets WP:NFOOTBALL as has played in a fully-professional Cup competition; needs improving to meet GNG. GiantSnowman 10:02, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - Meets WP:NFOOTBALL in my opinion. JMHamo (talk) 12:44, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - doesn't meet WP:NSPORTS as it now stands. For all the talk, the criteria remains the same. Hack (talk) 14:09, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Show some WP:COMMONSENSE - playing the the FA Cup Final doesn't make you notable according to NFOOTBALL as it is currently worded and we all know that's bullshit. GiantSnowman 14:11, 29 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete – While anyone who played in a FA cup final would undoubtedly meet WP:GNG, NFOOTBALL is only a safety net for players who have not received sufficient coverage. My opinion in this case is that a guy who was hauled off after playing less than 90 minutes of one incidental match, which was not "competitive" in my opinion. The match report linked in the article details how Portsmouth fielded nine teenagers and also describes "a near-youth team". Higgins has not received sufficient coverage to meet the GNG – and quite why we should have such articles on Wikipedia is beyond me. Anyone studying NFOOTBALL will see he does not meet its criteria, as it does not grant an exception for the league cup. I do however believe it would be beneficial to reword NFOOTBALL if there are those who believe it does not serve its purpose. C 679 14:32, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - Two fully pro sides in the league or the cup - no difference. The fact that NFOOTBALL does not reflect this says more about NFOOTBALL than this player. It needs rewriting and a new consensus gained on its wording or this sort of discussion will keep coming back.--Egghead06 (talk) 09:12, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Come on, you can't suggest he is notable for NFOOTBALL despite not meeting it, because the notability criteria is wrong. Surely he's not notable because he doesn't meet the criteria! C 679 20:33, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Instead of quoting this discredited NFOOTBALL take a look at what actaully happens. Many articles on footballers have been created where their only game(s) have been in the FA or League cups. Recent examples (without any prejudice) being George Colson and Reece Hales. This has been happening for years. Some end up being nominated for deletion, some not. The vast majority would not pass WP:GNG. The result is these deletion dicussions, a hit and miss approach to deletion and confusion. As I say, NFOOTBALL needs changing despite your curious comment of "I do however believe it would be beneficial to reword NFOOTBALL if there are those who believe it does not serve its purpose." --Egghead06 (talk) 07:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * And, linking so thoughtfully with GNG, where is the evidence this individual meets GNG? Noone voting "keep" is suggesting he passes it; if the only reason given to keep, NFOOTBALL, is as you say "discredited", surely this is no basis upon which to keep the article. C 679 07:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Based on GNG alone many articles on young footballers who make brief appearances in league or cup would not pass. NFOOTBALL only mentions league. Question - why is making a league appearance for a pro side confer notability and yet making an appearance for a pro side in a cup game doesn't? Different rules? Different governing body? Anything different? Nope - still a pro in a pro side from a pro league against another pro team!--Egghead06 (talk) 08:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Cup competitions often include amateur sides whereas a professional league does not. Either all cup games should pass NFOOTBALL or none not individual games in tournament which also involves amateur or semi-pro teams. If deleted this article can easily be re-created when the individual meets NFOOTBALL or WP:GNG. I follow Australian association football and I've never even heard of this guy. Simione001 (talk) 09:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * In the case of this player, he played in the Football League Cup, which is only open to fully professional teams, not amateurs or semi-pros.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:08, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - Why are cups games not included in player cap totals in the infobox? why only professional league games? Therefore i think cup games do not meet WP:NFOOTBALL. Simione001 (talk) 10:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Because stats aren't known for all Cup games over history, whereas League games are much, much better documented. GiantSnowman 10:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Ultimately, I am in agreement that this should be closed by an admin if contested. The policy states, Players who have appeared... in a fully professional league, will generally be regarded as notable, and A player that signs for a domestic team and has played in any games is generally regarded as notable. nless I am extremely rusty on my sporting terminology, a cup is technically a professional game. In addition, if the cup is between two league teams, although technically not part of the season, it still counts as having appeared in a fully professional league in this case A-League. If you go into fully professional leagues it specifically cites cups as grounds for notability. The discussion about his actual contributions during the league game is irrelevant to the policy or the merits of the article against it. Mkdw talk 09:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * No, see this is what I mean - his Cup game had nothing to do with the A-League, it was in England! Not all Cups are professional (though this one is). GiantSnowman 10:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Technically, fully professional leagues cites cups as grounds for notability which is the guideline WP:NFOOTBALL directs to as canon on what constitutes notability. Mkdw talk 10:22, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * As stated, FPL incorrectly quotes NFOOTBALL - I have now changed it to reflect current wording. GiantSnowman 10:31, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I've spent a few days looking over some WP:NFOOTBALL articles and reading the corresponding guidelines. While I think the article should remain I'm withdrawing my comment in light of my involvement. Mkdw talk 03:42, 11 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete - while there is a long-standing consensus that playing in a official match between two teams from fully pro league makes you pass WP:NFOOTY, I believe WP:COMMONSENSE in this case would be to delete the article, as he fails WP:GNG. There are plenty of AfD's in the last 6 months where players with 1 appearance in a fully pro league has been deleted as they fails GNG, because WP:NSPORTS (which NFOOTY is a part of) states that stand-alone articles has to pass GNG. Mentoz86 (talk) 19:51, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Per Mentoz86. --LlamaAl (talk) 00:45, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - per WP:COMMONSENSE. WP:ITSUSEFUL is an argument to avoid for a reason, but if somebody has, indeed, played professionally, it's likely that somebody is going to come looking for information about them. If they find even a short article like this one, they're likely to be satisfied, but if they get a "this page has been deleted" notice, they're likely to think that Wikipedia is stupid. He's verifiable though reliable sources; his playing at the fully pro league, even if only in a Cup match, should be sufficient to make him notable. Don't feed the nabobs. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:56, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I would imagine that a guy who has played 100+ times in a non-FPL would have more people looking for an article than Andy Higgins, but the guidelines are there to help us make calls when the notability is questionable. As for "common sense", does he meet GNG? No. Why? He has not been the subject of significant coverage from independent reliable sources. You can find his existence in reliable sources, as you said; but are there multiple sources which discuss aspects of his career beyond the routine match reports report? No. Thus GNG is not met. Does he meet NFOOTBALL? No. Why? He has not played a minute of professional league football. C 679  01:17, 3 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete Article does not meet GNG or NFOOTBALL. Eldumpo (talk) 18:15, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 21:45, 3 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete I don't see a reason to deviate from WP:NFOOTBALL or WP:GNG here. Higgins is a youth player who happens to have played just over an hour of cup football. It clearly states youth players are not notable unless they've played in a fully professional league, senior international or meet GNG. League competitions are generally more notable than Cup competitions. It also feels wrong for League Cup players to have pages whereas participants in the more prestigious FA Cup don't. No prejudice against recreating if he gets promoted from Perth's youth team and plays in the A-League, or any other fully pro-league for that matter. Funny  Pika! 01:19, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.