Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Angelo Antonio Toriello


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  MBisanz  talk 00:16, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Angelo Antonio Toriello

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Toriello seems to be an incredible person. Unfortunately, none of his accomplishments can be independently verified. All citations of significant facts come from Paradoxxmedia, a website that claims itself part of the "United Beings Project" that this article clearly states is a project of Toriello himself. In other words, Toriello himself is the source of all information about himself. No news sources can be found to verify any of these facts independently. The only thing Toriello can be verified as is a named director of 3 corporations in the UK, and as president of a shadowy organization called COSINT CAMEROUN, an organization purportedly dedicated to the improvement of health in Cameroon, but whose website is woefully empty of any information. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:52, 16 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete I concentrated on his claims of being the 'at-large ambassador' from Sao Tome. A search for São Tomé e Príncipe embaixador itinerante Toriello returns exactly one hit, a press release by his own purported organization. A site search of of the country's press agency returns nothing; the only reference to an at-large ambassador refers to a diplomat from Australia. If the fringe stuff there isn't enough, I went through his flickr stream and it seems to me that some of those images are photoshopped, although I'm no expert. A search for 'Frate|Friar Emanuel', which is one his aliases, returns nothing much, and a search for 'Marvin Toriello' seems to indicate he used to be a minor singer in Italy at some point. However, all that happened in the 90s so there would be minimal web content. The whole idea of being a "general" in some peace organization seems made up, however, I will note this video where he is seen in uniform (!) involved in the presentation of an Italian award to a notable Indian law enforcement official. The video was uploaded by "CORPISANITARIINTER", which seems to be another alias or a name for one of his multiple organizations. I also searched Italian web, news and magazine sources and I could find nothing. Every single hit refers in some way or another back to his website. Assuming for a second that this isn't some massive hoax, in the end he fails WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO under all his names and aliases, and his organizations also fail WP:ORG. As usual, no prejudice to reversing my !vote if someone can come up with valid rationale to keep this. § FreeRangeFrog croak 20:26, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Questions: are reputed printed-media newspaper considered an independent source and an eligible criterion of data verification? If yes, are these media printed format accepted even if not verifiable from internet because removed from the web archives of the issuer networks, or in other words, in form of original printed newspaper? If yes, then, the fact that these printed newspapers are not published in the net, it does not mean that these are not a valid independent source of data verification. The solution here is simple, if this is the case: where to submit the original printed newspaper format about Toriello’s articles then? Not knowing how to proceed as I'm new to Wikipedia, to obviate the snag, I have referred to ParadoxxMedia website itself as some of the articles about Toriello are there published in form of pictures scanned from the original articles which have been issued by notorious newspapers in Italy and India, and which for the instance their data have been removed from their archives due the long time passed. However, myself I have personally verified the originality of the whole before to hazard any publishing idea and, although ParadoxxMedia is part of UB project, these are totally independent from Toriello, nonetheless is the founder and, for the instance, who he is not at all aware yet of this on-going, since this is just an initiative nothing to do with him. The fact that someone is the founder of an organization or a company, does not mean that he is making use of its own structure to publicize himself: facts talk by themselves. Therefore, before stating that all this is a massive hoax or accusing someone of self-making up all this, a fair, serious and deep investigation should be launched to establish the genuineness of the Toriello's case. Specially regarding the diplomat status, someone should be more attentive before to consider it as a massive hoax, as if the documentation published on ParadoxxMedia website are not considered a valid and independent source of verification, it does not make someone a scam or a forger of photos, videos or whatever, as alleged by “freerangefrog” user. Myself, as an occasional freelance writer, before to tribute this article to Toriello's life, as according my opinion worth to be published for many reasons and which satisfy the general public interest, I have been screening his doing since 10 years with enough neutral critic sense, although my well acquaintance with the person. I don't see any sense of Toriello himself referring independent verification accomplishments to his own website where it is clearly stated that he is the founder. Sorry for my expression, but someone doing that must be really dumb! However, if necessary, I can provide evidence of genuineness of the case by standing for it to any request, even if I would have to personally meet concerned Wikipedia decisional board, in order to clear the person name for self-advertisement. Regarding COSINT org, any enquiry about Toriello membership should be addressed at http://www.cosint.eu/ and www.allafrica.com. (For general information, CO.S.INT is an Italian NGO founded in 1986 by Italian General Giuseppe Garibaldi as a military supporting structure, which by the time became a paramilitary organization and today a civilian organization authorized to wear an uniform contemplated by its statute. The rank given is honorary and based on the qualification and experience of the person, as mostly those who become member are a military or ex-military person. Any doubt about it, enquiries should be address to the Italian Government. Instead, regarding the Toriello’s diplomatic position, as it is a serious affair, any allegation of Toriello’s forged identity, inquiry should be addressed to the government of the Democratic Republic of Sao Tome & Prinicpe of which I make myself available to provide any verifiable documentation and official contacts. In other words, understanding the seriousness of the case, before any allegation of hoax or forgery,  a serious investigation should be considered before deletion of articles in such a way to assure equally justice to all concerned parties, keeping in consideration that the web is not the only source of independent data verifications. DrKlain (talk) 02:04, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply If the deletion of this article has to be based on an "authentic" independent criterion of verifications, then with all due respect, a large part of articles in Wikipedia should be re-considered for deletion. However, the point here is not that, but to establish if the accomplishments verification of Toriello's case are from an independent source or not.
 * Comment That's a lot to digest, but the bottom line is that we still have no independent verifications that Toriello has accomplished all that is claimed. Scans of newspapers can be altered -- citations to actual newspaper articles, with dates, would be preferred.  No copies of newspaper articles need be submitted -- modern newspapers have online archives that can be searched.  Since Toriello's activities are recent, some record of his activities should have found its way to the internet, but outside of ParadoxxMedia and his other ventures, none has.  Given the claimed significance of the man, this seems unlikely.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:41, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
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Italian Press: Cronache del Mezzogiorno, Cronache della Sera Group, article issued 25/09/08 by Gabriele Bojano; Cronache del Mezzogiorno, Cronache della Sera Group, article issued 02/10/06 by Mariano Iodice; Interno Otto, Il Mattino Group, article issued 05/12/09 by Ralph Coluccino; Il Salernitano, PCRL group, article issued 20/11/05 by the staff; Il mattino, article issued 30/09/96 by Fabio Jouakim ( of the same Il Mattino, but different journalists, there are at least 6/7 more articles); Famiglia Cristiana, magazine issued October 2006 by the staff;
 * Reply Thank you for your impartial and open comment. Myself I’m surprised about it as I never thought there was so much to be digested. Wikipedia being an open source platform, I did not aspect to find in it a sort of “inquisitive tribunal” ambience at the point of users launching allegations (“massive hoax” and “fake identity”) towards someone (whomsoever) without having conducted a serious, unbiased and deeper investigation about publishing cases, than just basing the independent verification’s source of person’s accomplishments on the  web only. If something is not on the web, it does not exist! Sorry, but this is absurd! For the instance, me too I’m surprised that newspapers don’t keep certain data online archives, but the reasons could be thousands. It does not have to necessarily be because that news doesn’t exist, or because there is something dodgy or dreadful about it, and neither has to necessarily be something hoaxing or whatever someone wants to see in the back of the story. In fact, the reason of so much to say, it is just due to the serious allegations (diplomatic fake position and the forged “honorary” COSINT general accreditation,) moved towards the Toriello person (but it could be X, Y, Z), otherwise the case could really be resolved with few simple words: “Yes, newspapers in printed format, although not published in the web, are a valid  and acceptable media independent verification’s source for a persona accomplishments and complying with the Wikipedia guidelines, OR NOT, these are not a valid source of independent verification ”. That’s all! Why the need of such allegations and accusations? However, although I was ready to submit ORIGINAL (and not photocopy) copy of the newspapers reporting news about the man, below are cited few of the many articles released by the press.

Indian Press: The Pioneer, article issued 06/03/97 by Arvind Bhandhari; The Statesman, article issued 16/09/97 by Arvind Bhandhari; The Hindu, article issued 03/11/97 by Hindu Staff reporter; The Statesman, article issue 21/12/97 by Staff The Pionner, article issued 22/08/98 by Vidisha Krishan

There are around other newspapers articles and some magazine articles of which I will have to search in case of need. Regarding the Toriello diplomatic position, enquiries could be addressed at +239 2221142, presidency office of the DRSTP, Colonel Victor Travares Monteiro, director of the Gabinet of the presidency office, as their official website is still under construction; or at the Sao Tome & Principe Emabassy, Portugal, Dr. Edgar Torres, counsellor to the Ambassador. In the end and in other words, if such evidences are not a valid source of independent verifications complying with Wikipedia guide lines, I have not at all objection for article's deletion.Thanks. DrKlain (talk) 17:58, 17 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Last comment  I wish again to clear few points before to give an end to such long arguments thanks to valuable advises from FreeRangeFrog user: 1) I’m not DYING to have this Toriello’s article published as it is not an affair of life, I was just wishing to report news which according to my modest and quite impartial freelance journalistic experience could be of public interest. Again I have to repeat that if Toriello’s case doesn’t much Wikipedia’s guidelines, deletion is a fair action. That’s all! For that I have to again apologize to FreeRangeFrog user if he misunderstood my comment for a legal threatening to let advance my case, which absolute it is not. 3) Again I’m asked to provide proof about the case, but no one here is clearly helping me to understand if the proof which I have in my possession are valid or not and which are: original copy of printed newspapers, video interview etc, etc, which unfortunately are not published on the web by independent source but our website dedicated to the man who, although has been the founder of the group, he is not at all involved in the activities which are independent from him. Regarding his diplomatic position as ambassador at-large of the DRSTP, I can access original document decreed by the President Manuel Pinto da Costa and which are scanned and published on the web. But again FreeRangeFrog user says that I have not to refer to ParadoxxMedia website. So, kindly could someone help me in a clear way how I have to submit these original documents as a proof since are not published on the web by some other independent source than ParadoxxMedia site? I could even request the cabinet of the presidency to provide a notified copy of his diplomatic passport, but again where to submit? Are all these ok with Wikipedia guidelines? Kindly advice in a clear and final manner in order to close this case if all these are not matching with Wikipedia’s guidelines. Thanks. DrKlain (talk) 10:38, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment DrKlain seems to be in sole possession of the documents that can verify the claims in this article. How is that so?  Does the Democratic Republic of São Tomé and Príncipe not publish such official documents for public inspection?  Is every newspaper that has ever reported about Toriello so backward as to not have web archives?  I want to assume good faith here, but the claims made about Toriello are too grandiose not to have left a footprint on the web.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:55, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment You have repeatedly said that the records that prove this person is an ambassador from Sao Tome are available - I assume those are the same that you 'scanned' and placed in your website. I could not find them. If you know where they can be seen or obtained online, can you provide us with the link so we can verify them? While you're at it, could you please point out where we can find this person's bio on the COSINT wesbite ? I could not find a single mention of him there either. More linking and concrete proof, less arguing please. § FreeRangeFrog croak 17:46, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


 * At a minimum there's some puffery here. ("travelled all around the world due to his many skills"?) However, let's start here.
 * Sources do not need to be online. If you have in your possession paper clippings that support some of these statements, you can (and MUST, if you want the statements to remain) cite them old-school with bibliographic references. I know there are publications that are not online but -- personally -- I find it a bit difficult, as someone said, to swallow the idea that NONE of your sources are online. Not in JSTOR or anything? But ok. Cite them, though. If you can't then the article absolutely should come down. The article sounds like utter bushwhack to me, frankly. Elinruby (talk) 22:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Reply  WikiDan61, I’m not the sole one having such documents, but I possess some of the press release as I have been collecting information about Toriello long back - as I said - because for my “journalistic interest about him for his controversial nature and since the priest’s paedophilia news resounded a lot in Italy in the late 96, resulting in a rapid and subtle “news blackout” campaign reaction by the church, tending to denigrate his persona and defame him to the public eyes. However, as FreeRangeFrog user says, although I have answers to your fair doubts, as the story is complex and entwined, these would sound just inconsistent arguments, so let’s focus on whatever independent evidence I could be able to provide. FreeRangeFrog, this next link I’m providing is nothing, but brings up his politic activity involvement at that time and could be a point of consideration as his name is in the list of “parlamentari” which it means “of the parliament”: . Kindly look in the name’s list of “parlamentari” as he is listed (6th line from the end of the “parlamentari” list) as a representative of “Socialisti Italiani”, an Italian political party. Here, instead, find the link of the documents decreed by President Pinto da Costa which accredit him as ambassador at-large of the DRSTP: . By scrolling the page down, the scansion of the documents are there. This is also an answer to WikiDan61, as these documents are printed and for public inspection there, but up to now not yet published on the web as the official website of Sao Tome and Principe is still under construction: . Regarding CO.S.INT I have no connection with this org, although I was present to his honorary nomination, but I can enquiry on Monday, and in mean time you could reconsider as an independent source of verification the link you already have and note it as a point to keep in consideration although it does not say much: [ref>http://fr.allafrica.com/stories/201112070715.html], where it reports the news that Toriello went to officialize the COSINT in Cameroun. Meanwhile, I will work to get in touch with networks and newspapers to see if they could help to retrieve Toriello’s past published articles from their archives for an online verifications, although difficult, but not impossible. I will work as well as on the advice of Elinruby user. Thanks for advising. DrKlain (talk) 00:20, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The article about Toriello being named ambassador-at-large is cited to AllAfrica.com, but there is no record of such an article at AllAfrica.com. Such inconsistencies make the entire story a bit difficult to believe.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 01:56, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Reply  Hi. I think that some confusion is there as I never mention that allafrica.com has reported the news about his ambassador at-large nomination, which the link was rather related to the official celebration of the COSINT Cameroun (In fact, I apologize for it as there is a mistaken link on the ParadoxxMedia site which I have pointed out to the concerned web host). Kindly go through my previous reply and I’m sure that this confusion will be cleared. I said that unfortunately the documents regarding his diplomatic position are just published in ParadoxxMedia website as the official website of Sao Tome and Principe is still under construction. To obtain such documents I have requested them to the cabinet of the presidency. Therefore, there is nothing grandiose about the man as he is just carrying on his social projects in which he believes (like anyone else), by following unusual schemes which portray him as a “ controversial and ambiguous “ character and for which today he is paying for it, for his presumption and probably “arrogance” of that time, because he thought to be able to “defy” the secular power of the church by just publicly exposing priest’s pedophilia activities. Unfortunately, he got back a fierce response from the institutional power which defamed his name and silenced the press to avoid the diffusion of news about the case, with consequent minimization of the whole story and generating a sort of isolation and distrust around him and his entourage, especially when his sexual abuse’s experience endured by a priest became publicly. Therefore, not knowing the true story behind the man, you are right to assume everything about his story inconsistencies, but this is what it is, and I can’t change the facts or invent things to pursue his case, and although I’m sympathetic towards the man, it does not mean that I will be his accomplice by scamming around and pay legal consequences for his eventual alleged fakery. Or you are open to the possibilities that this is an “out of the box” story, or you have per really assume that all about him and his life (videos, photos, organizations, myself and other personalities involved with him and whole data in the web) is a “massive well organized hoax” as FreeRangeFrog user was assuming from the beginning. If there is not another complying Wikipedia guidelines way to proof an independent source of verification about his accomplishments (like by sending all authentic media material to a Wikipedia structure/office/point for verification of authenticity), I’m sorry but I have to surrender myself as at this stage I can’t do more than this. Thanks anyway for the fair given opportunity. DrKlain (talk) 12:53, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * mmmmK. I did find the the name on the list as described, so possibly he *is* a socialist member of the Italian parliament. Or maybe has the same first and last names as a member of parliament, always assuming that radicali.it is a reliable source, which I have not tried to investigate. On the other hand, the sao tome ambassador at large link gors to paradoxxmedia too, and http://www.saotome.st/index.php doesn't look terribly under construction to me. I know I don't have the patience for much more of this, personally. It's not much of a claim to notability anyway. Honorary title of a very small country. Seems to me that if he's actually notable it would have been as an anti-pedophilia crusader, and it beggars belief that he is in fact a crusader who has generated zero press. I am not buying the media conspiracy thing. Newspapers are run by political parties in Europe -- no way they would all agree to cover up for the Vatican. If he's thebest thing since sliced cheese why doesn't he have an article in the Italian Wikipedia? If he is tat important someone else will start and article about him, and maybe they will know what a footnote is. Elinruby (talk) 21:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * No, that link merely says that someone with the same name (because we don't have a way to ensure it's him) attended a march in support of a death penalty moratorium in 2007 as a representative of one of the very minor Italian political parties, which I should point out, does not exist anymore. parlamentari in this case does not necessarily imply that he is a member of Parliament (upper or lower house). You will notice how other names in the list are prefixed with 'Sen' (Senator) and 'on.' (onorevole, or 'honorable', which is used for members of the lower chamber of deputies). It would be simple to find a reference to this person in the Italian Chamber of Deputies site, or even the Senate. If that was the case we wouldn't be having this conversation. That list unfortunately proves nothing. § FreeRangeFrog croak 21:40, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment There is this 2011 article (in French) from a site in Cameroon that would establish the fact that Mr. Toriello is in fact the representative of COSINT (which is a part of the Italian Red Cross) in that country. Still not enough to pass WP:GNG at this point, but this seems to back up at least some of the claims in the article. § FreeRangeFrog croak 22:18, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Actually, COSINT does not appear to be affiliated with the Italian Red Cross or the International Federation of Red Cross/Red Crescent Societies (IFRC). It appears to be its own unique organization evolved from a para-military organization purportedly founded by Giuseppe Garibaldi.  (According to their by-laws.)

However, just for the sake of neutral journalistic investigations, and please note it that is “NOTHING TO DO WITH MY ARTICLE’S CASE ANYMORE”, allow me for the last time to rectify assertions in your talks which according me are not correct. I have to apologize to Elinruby user as the link for Sao Tome official web site is the following and not the previous which by mistake I have linked to ParadoxxMedia. In fact, this is the right link and the one pointed out by you  is not published from a governmental body. Regarding Toriello’s position of ambassador at-large is not “honorary” which rather it is a political nomination appointed by a Presidential decree, but still, even if honorific, it comes from a Presidential decree of a recognized Sovereign State, so please don’t throw ashes on it by minimizing and labeling the country “small”, since there are smallest countries than it. (e.g. Vatican, which are just 1000 citizen and a lot to say about its history how it got power etc. etc…, but let’s stop the issue here, or I have to assume that there are discriminations in your assertion). The point is that; first of all you should be neutral about it and without parting for one or another country despite its geographical characteristics; second, I’m sure you know that Ambassadors at-large appointed by any recognized Sovereign State have all similar privileges and value, and then nothing to do if the appointing country is big or small, poor or reach (otherwise again I have to assume that something here it borders discrimination). About the press coverage, as I said, it was blocked at its origin itself at that time, so the news were immediately contained from the naissance’s city, Salerno (south of Italy), and mainly covered by “Il Mattino’s newspaper group and “Cronache Del Mezzogiorno” (of which I have provided citations with the name of the journalists covering the news), and please consider the fact that in the 1996 very few were willing to “challenge” the undisputed power of the church. Just today, with the changing systems thanks to evolving generational visions and more “impartiality”, church’s authority could be contrasted. In fact, their concealed deviations and wrongs, start to come out thanks also to person like Toriello’s precursory public denounces. But again, all these are just arguing, so let’s stick to FreRangeFrog user’s advice and to whom I wish to clarify his raised point and which is that I have never mention that Toriello was a parliamentary, but I just pointed a link where his name was listed there, as to give a small evidence of his role as a “Socialisti Italiani’s party representative” and of which I mentioned in my article. In the end, as I’m becoming more accustomed with Wikipedia’s guidelines, I have realized of being unadvised and hasty, so rather to promote the man’s accomplishments, I probably have belittled them by missing WP:GNG. At this point, FreeRangeFrog user is right saying that talks are not relevant, therefore I can’t deny the fact that at this stage my article is not complying much Wikipedia’s guidelines, although I have to mention my effort of having contacted all concerned sources in my knowledge to point them out the concerned removal’s information from their archives. May be a day something will come up. Let’s see! However, for now I understand the necessity to reach to a conclusion. DrKlain (talk) 12:56, 22 January 2013 (UTC) 
 * Reply  Hi. It may be my last comment to this, and nothing to do to support my case. As I said, if Wikipedia doesn’t contemplate in its guidelines another way to establish an independent source of accomplishment’s verification (like an investigative journalistic office where to submit original media materials for verification and not available on the web), at this point our talks are airless, as according you editors point of view, unfortunately, there is nothing much on the web to verify. On the contrary, instead, in my and some other hands we have original printed newspapers and videos footage which could be found and archived at that time, but unfortunately are useless as this material can’t be submitted to some Wikipedia point for verification, therefore, I bitterly have to agree that my Toriello’s article is very weak to be credible. Then, you editors have the right to assume anything since having nothing much in the hands and not knowing the true story behind the man. But myself and someone else, knowing it, we could keep giving answers to your fair doubts, but again…it would be for you editors just airless talks, as justly everything has to be verifiable on the web only.
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 23:59, 24 January 2013 (UTC)




 * Delete available sources are not independent of the subject, not sure if any of his achievements reach our standards of notability. J04n(talk page) 12:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Can find any external reliable sources that talk about him. FurrySings (talk) 14:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait the persona is well known in italy and india but is true that he is very exstravagant person. original cut of newspaper are available to the news agency and that shows that there are evidence of his achievments although not posted on internet. the point is to find the way how to get these cuts so it is not correct to say that the persona has not achieved nothing because not verifiable in internet. i have contacted a journalist that has written one of the articles and he has confermed it. for verification this is his email: removed email address . regardin the position as ambassador at-large im enquiring. UwikiRepo (talk) 18:34, 31 January 2013 (UTC) — UwikiRepo (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment Private contact with a journalist is not considered a reliable source.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 18:47, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.