Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ann Lovell


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. The book source Stuartyeates does address the GNG concern cited by the delete side. I am also dismissing the argument of Johnpacklambert as it is irrelevant to the notability of this subject and instead makes an unfounded accusation of the article dehumanizing people. Sjakkalle (Check!)  16:04, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Ann Lovell

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fails WP:GNG. Article and given source give no clue about her notability. The Banner talk 12:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete. Maybe this is a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT on my part, but I can't understand how a generic colonist is notable enough for an encyclopedia entry.  Besides which, I don't see significant coverage in reliable sources, though I'll grant that I probably missed a few potential hits by aggressively screening out false positives. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 12:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 14:58, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment. I'm undecided on this one. She does have an entry in the Dictionary of New Zealand Biography. An entry in a national dictionary of biography would usually confer automatic notability, but there doesn't seem to be much reason why she is, except as an early settler in a particular area. My instincts are to trust the editors and call for a keep though. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:58, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:GNG. As per this discussion some entries in the DNZB were included as representative of groups of people (e.g. "colonists") not for any individual notability. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 20:18, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * As per the link, she's in the current version, she's not one of the many people listed in the 1940 work are not included in the current DNZB. Stuartyeates (talk) 08:14, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:20, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment: could we please hold on for 72 hours? I have access to a library with a hardcopy of the work that the DNZB cites as it's source, so I can see what the depth of coverage is. I have asked for it to be bought out from closed stack. Stuartyeates (talk) 08:14, 9 February 2014 (UTC) See below. Stuartyeates (talk) 01:47, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep as she and her family were the first European settlers in Golden Bay. The families relationship to local Maori is also significant as the period was punctuated with conflict between the settlers and Maori. It is this that gives her notability. I have added some additional information and references to the article. NealeFamily (talk) 02:41, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, --Regards, MrScorch6200 (talk · contribs)  20:59, 15 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete - per DerbyCountyinNZ, appears to be rep entry rather than notable herself - SimonLyall (talk) 09:12, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Simon does being the first settler in Golden Bay make it a rep entry? NealeFamily (talk) 02:03, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Rep entry or not, it still does not make her notable. The Banner talk 02:29, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I would disagree as her coverage does make her notable in the context of historical New Zealand european settlement history. Newspaper coverage from the time also indicates a biais towards the so called upper class, but that is a whole different topic in itsself NealeFamily (talk) 01:22, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * And how notable is she from the viewpoint of the non-European inhabitants of the area? The Banner talk 15:16, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
 * One would need to ask the locals - from my reading of the history she would have had mixed reviews. European settlement was a pandora's box - some benefits, but a lot of negatives as well NealeFamily (talk) 02:16, 24 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep I've had a look at the book Millar, J. H. Beyond the marble mountain. Nelson, [1949] and it contains in-depth coverage of Ann. The book is a reworking of a series of 23 stories originally published in the Nelson Mail, which amounts to a serialised biography of her husband. Most of the pieces have Ann acting as an independent actor and her actions are covered in-depth. The forward talks about 'scores of interviews' and the body is full of exact dates and amounts of payments (they were primarily traders) which suggest access to archival sources. Stuartyeates (talk) 22:43, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I should add that I;m the original article creator and that the Nelson Mail of tthe appropiate vintage has not yet been digitised by PapersPast. Stuartyeates (talk) 01:47, 18 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete This article perpetuates a Western-centric focus on the expansion of European settlement in a way that marginzalizes and at times dehumanizes the native peoples of New Zealand and other places.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:11, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Um...what now, exactly? - The Bushranger One ping only 09:55, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you under-estimate the ability of the local Maori - they were capable, enterprising, and adaptable. The Chief of the neighbouring pa had Lovell build a boat and used it to export coal to neighbouring European settlements. Certainly there were issues with european settlement. The relationship between the Lovell's and the local Maori does lack detail at the moment, but that is all there is in the reliable sources I have seen to date. At present there appears to be nothing but mutual respect for each another. I acknowledge there is always a danger of being patronising and having a race-centric bias when dealing across the racial divides, so I am sure you'll keep us honest. NealeFamily (talk) 02:16, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep, this person is the subject of multiple, substantial, and independent works (including entries in the DNZB and coverage in Millar's work as described by User:Stuartyeates. Passes WP:GNG easily.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 13:13, 25 February 2014 (UTC).
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.