Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anne Watson


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Spartaz Humbug! 07:01, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Anne Watson

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Fails WP:NPOL and gng Dom from Paris (talk) 23:48, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris (talk) 23:48, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Vermont-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris (talk) 23:50, 29 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep. Even though the article is still in its formative stages, three news stories about the Honorable Watson have been found. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:20, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Three news stories is not enough to make the mayor of a town of just 7K notable for that, because every mayor of everywhere could always show three news stories. Our notability criteria for mayors is not "every mayor of everywhere gets an automatic in", however — it's "this mayor has a credible claim to being more notable than most mayors". Bearcat (talk) 20:33, 30 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete fails to pass WP:NPOL or WP:GNG (all sources so far appear trivial). SportingFlyer  talk  02:57, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment seattletimes helps GNG a little. If the article is deleted, consider adding something about her at Montpelier,_Vermont. Perhaps when she becomes the vice presidential nominee in the next election, we'll have more sources we can use. ;-) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:16, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment your nom doe not mention any sort of WP:BEFORE search. What sort of search did you do? DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 12:54, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Nothing over and above routine coverage that one would expect for a mayor in Google. Dom from Paris (talk) 13:31, 30 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete. At 7K, Montpelier is not large enough to hand its mayors an automatic presumption of notability per WP:NPOL #2 just for existing, but the sourcing here is not strong enough to get her over the "more notable than the norm among a not inherently notable class of topic" hump. The slightly weird fact that the Seattle Times would reprint a wire service article about a municipal election in Vermont admittedly starts down the path toward making her more notable than the norm — but it doesn't finish that race all by itself as the article's only piece of more than just WP:ROUTINE local coverage. Passing GNG is not just a question of whether the number of reliable sources in the article exceeds one, because every mayor of everywhere can always show n>1 sources — it's a question of the range and depth and volume of sourcing that can be shown, as well as the strength of the basic notability claim that the sources are supporting, but the range and depth and volume of sources shown here are not unusual enough to make a smalltown mayor a special case over and above most other smalltown mayors. Bearcat (talk) 20:33, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment. I was the admin who declined the A7 speedy on this. No opinion either way on notability, but despite its size the town is a state capital, there is a populated category for Mayors of Vermont, and the previous incumbent has an article without any obvious sources of notability beyond the mayoral position. I also consider the REI Co-op Journal ref to be some indication of non-local significance, as it is a national publication, though by no means a high-quality one. Espresso Addict (talk) 00:20, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * No, I looked at that one, and it seemed to be mostly some sort of web-shop. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:45, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep While sourcing is still weak, I think the item on her successful multi-year push for statewide varsity status of "Ultimate" adds a separate source of notability. Several sources have mentioned her as an "award-winning" teacher. Details about that award might add a 3rd source, and those must be out there. I also think that Espresso Addict's point about Montpelier being a state capital has merit. A state capital automatically has exposure to state-wide or regional issues (and coverage) in a way that other towns of similar size do not. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 00:57, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There appears to be a possibly relevant source in The Science Teacher, Volume 74, Issues 1-6, p56. However the Google Books snippet does not show enough for me to use the source. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 01:10, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I just added sourced content on her Knowles Senior teaching Fellowship, and an appearance before the State Education Committee. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 01:40, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * And on a Teaching Certification. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 01:55, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * None of which are notability claims in and of themselves. (A teacher, with a teaching certification? Well, I'll be, I haven't heard of anything so crazy in at least five minutes now!) Bearcat (talk) 05:16, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The teacher certification is an optional one, given by a national organization. You might expect to find one or two teachers with this certification per school. Still, this is comparable in politics to being a city council member, not comparable to being, say, a state legislator, which seems to be the minimum level in politics to rate a Wikipedia article. Jc3s5h (talk) 08:56, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment I think when one combines:
 * the teaching certification/award (described by the source a "very prestigious" and said to be givn to fewer than 1.5% of teachers nationally),
 * the teaching senior fellowship, awarded by an outside non-profit (also described as prestigious by the news source),
 * the years-long state-wide advocacy for the acceptance of Ultimate as a varsity-level sport, and its eventual success,
 * the advocacy for the international student program before the state legislature,
 * the grant to plan said international student program
 * coaching a sports team that has gone to state-wide championships twice (mentioned in two sources now cited in the article, but not currently in the article itself)
 * serving on the town council for several years
 * being elected mayor of a state capitol city
 * Being described by a national publication as one of the "five coolest mountain-town mayors"
 * Coverage in the Seattle Times, about as non-local as one can get, then
 * The result adds up to notability, although far from the strongest case for notability ever seen here. No one item alone amounts to notability, but taken together, I think this is over the line. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 17:49, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I have corrected some of the information that you added and sourced it. The news source that you cited had not verified the claims I think. Only 3.3% of tearchers are certified it's true but there is a 65% pass rate. According to sources I have looked at the small number of certified teachers is due to the cost, 2500$, and the 400 hours of work necessary to do it. The source states this is the gold standard for teachers, I think that a doctor's degree is higher. The coolest mayor claim is in a blog on a co-op site that sells mountain gear. Not exactly a reliable source for notability I think. Dom from Paris (talk) 08:20, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:21, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep - article could use some cleanup and further expansion, not deletion, per WP:ATD.Hmlarson (talk) 05:17, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Strong keep - Aside from the views of a minuscule number of Wikipedia users, becoming mayor of a U.S. state capital, no matter how small, is more than enough for recognition. Her bio deserves a further expansion and clean-up, but not deletion. Watson's status as the mayor of a capital, even if it is the smallest, is fine. It's also unusual to delete an article on a sitting, incumbent state capital mayor.  All that said, there's a sports and athletics aspect to her bio and career as well.  Watson led a successful multi-year effort to have Ultimate Frisbee recognized as varsity sport. In 2017, thanks largely to Watson, Vermont approved Ultimate's varsity status, becoming the first state in the country to do so.   Her efforts have been recognized not just by local and state publications (which is more than enough), but also by the Associated Press, sports publications and newspapers outside Vermont. It's a cool bit of both sports history and women's history. I've added sources about her Ultimate campaign and plan to add more about her political career as well. It's an example of why we should never throw the baby out with the bathwater, which unfortunately is too often the case with mayors on Wikipedia. Scanlan (talk) 13:36, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. Scanlan (talk) 13:41, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That argument is a failure of understanding WP:GNG, right there. You don't get automatic notability for becoming mayor of a state capital, that's straight up WP:ILIKEIT. SportingFlyer  talk  17:32, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Where specifically does it say verbatim "You don't get automatic notability for becoming mayor". Scanlan (talk) 22:35, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:POLOUTCOMES. I quote: Mayors of smaller towns, however, are generally deemed not notable just for being mayors, although they may be notable for other reasons in addition to their mayoralty (e.g. having previously held a more notable office). I don't see additional notability here. SportingFlyer  talk  22:45, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Where is the proof that it is thanks largely to Watson that ultimate frisbee was recognised as a varsity sport? The source quotes her "Anne Watson said she began the push for varsity recognition seven years. " Sounds like she is blowing her own horn and this is a primary source for that statement. Here's another source about the same story that doesn't mention her. Dom from Paris (talk) 17:50, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That's the same Associated Press story by Wilson Ring, nearly word-for-word, that's already cited in the article under Daily Hampshire Gazette]. The only difference between the two is that Boston.com edits down the length a bit. Otherwise, same AP article, author, and source. Scanlan (talk) 22:35, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * You don't see a sourcing notability issue if a paper took the same AP article published elsewhere and edited the subject out completely while still maintaining a decent length to the article? SportingFlyer  talk  22:46, 6 May 2018 (UTC)


 * comment I checked out the other 4 mayors of this town that have pages and 3 were also state representatives and the other that wasn't is going through Afd. The attempts to bolster her notability with reports of her very normal educational career and her ultimate frisbee activities do nothing to show real notability. Even the wording in the article is misleading "first female mayor... since" suggesting that it is noteworthy, whereas there seems to have been quite a few female mayors of the town over the past few decades. Dom from Paris (talk) 08:17, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, there my judgement differs from yours. I do agree that the 'first female mayor" line is misleading and I will reword it -- it i a recent change. But I think the Ultimate Frisbee activities are probably enough for notability on their own. And when you combine everything -- well just how often does one find a person who has been president of a ton council and then a Mayor, granted of a small town, but still a state capitol; who has coached a high-school sports team to the state finals in multiple years, with one state championship; who has led a multi-year push for state-wide recognition of a new sport; who has been through a 5-year junior teaching fellowship and now holds a senior fellowship; who has received two further separate fellowships/grants from NGOs; who has appeared in testimony on a quite different issue before a state legislative committee; and whose article now includes some twenty cited sources? Are you going to tell me that one person combining all of that is "very normal"? Well if you are, i disagree. And it seems that several other editors disagree as well. This is well within the judgement zone, and I don't think a closer will see a consensus to delete here. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 12:55, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 17:04, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep This is an interesting case. She is a mayor, teacher, writer and coach. Montpellier is a small town but it is the state capital. I think there are enough RS to pass GNG. ~ EDDY  ( talk / contribs ) ~ 15:11, 7 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.