Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anthony J. Hilder (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus defaulting to Keep and w/o prejudice to a future renomination, though I would encourage a reasonable waiting period. This was a seriously bloated discussion and I concede that another admin might have called it a Keep. But after reading it through a couple times I am not persuaded there is a consensus here. (Is this a good time to ask for a raise?) Ad Orientem (talk) 01:24, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Anthony J. Hilder
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Spectacularly long article, but when you glean through sources you find essentially nothing that is independent, reliable, or generally of the quality we would ask for from a WP:FRINGEBLP or WP:CELEBRITY. My guess is that this entire page is functioning as a soapbox. I encourage those who are considering this page to look at the sourcing and realize that none of the sources are serious or reliable. It's one of the worst cases of Wikipedia abuses I've seen in some time. jps (talk) 12:57, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment: I agree with the nomination. This is one of the worst articles I've ever seen, and a BLP. My first thought was a WP:UPE or a similiar WP:COI, but the editor says that is not the case. I've notified, who's basically written the entire article (~70% of all edits, ~80% of all content). --Ronz (talk) 16:11, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Reply to Ronz, that's not a good suggestion as I edit what I like and what takes my fancy or what I find interesting. Nothing more!! Nobody pays, thanks, buys me lunch or a drink. Only thing is the satisfaction that I get from expanding and adding. The mention you made here - Quote: - - ("This is one of the worst articles I've ever seen, and a BLP. My first thought was a WP:UPE or a similiar WP:COI, but the editor says that is not the case"), can be taken the wrong way and add prejudice to the article. Here's another example of my expansion. Take Deane Waretini who I only had a small amount of knowledge of. Only a one line article as per: Revision as of 03:19, 16 November. Now see what I brought it up to as per: Revision as of 10:27, 22 September 2016. I not only know 20 times more about Waretini than I did when I started, I know more about Waretini and related info than the average person now. And what do I get out of it all? Well, one thing is a I learn more about the subject as I go. And I don't just do it for my satisfaction. I do it for others. I love info! And if I can help share it as do the many other editors then .... That's my payment. Karl Twist (talk) 08:43, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment directed to ජපස aka jps - Hello ජපස aka jps, I see that you nominated the Anthony J. Hilder article for deletion. You said " It's one of the worst cases of Wikipedia abuses I've seen in some time" - . Well, I can tell you that there is no abuse on my part. Nothing intentional. And I totally reject what your using that term. Unintentionally though it may be, it gives unfair prejudice to this article to which I have been a major contributor. Yes, a "Spectacularly long article" it may seem. There is a lot to the subject and a lot of info on him out there. On Google News there were 3 articles about Hilder. They're not there anymore for some reason. I love expanding articles, adding stuff to them and linking them in with other articles. Believe it or not, I was quite pleased with myself that I expanded the article from what it was when I first came across it to the size that it was just prior to being nominated for deletion. Yes, I realize that there was some stuff here and there that had to be trimmed. Actually I going to put in some more. As you can see, there's more. Anyway, take audio-pioneer Lou Dorren. This is what the article looked like before I started work on it 13 August 2015. Then this is what I expanded it to. See here 13 July 2017. Turns out Lou has a place in California music history as well. There are so many things under represented in Wikipedia. Articles about the contributions by African Americans in the film and music industry is one. Surf music isn't covered enough either. This subject, namely Anthony J. Hilder is an integral part of surf music development. To deny Hilder's involvement by saying he is not notable is to deny a major and integral part of surf music culture and history as well as California music history. And yeah, he's in the conspiracy game and is a 911 Truther. That's info that shouldn't be discarded. Yes, I know articles about 911 Truthers, so-called 9/11 conspiracy theorists is frowned upon by some. So what are we supposed to do? Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 09:26, 23 January 2019 (UTC)


 * keepSeems to have a, lot of sources, as the the rest, re-write.Slatersteven (talk) 18:43, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes it needs a lot or work (made a start), and many (but not all) of the sources are iffy.Slatersteven (talk) 19:44, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Could you please identify the sources that demonstrate notability? --Ronz (talk) 05:04, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Who Put the Bomp No.14, Fall 1975 - Page 12 may do (but I canot verify) [] (trivial to be sure, but not alone, by a long chalk (i cannot believe that someone with this number of mentions has not got more RS going on about his musical carer)) [] Local but may well be an RS. Surfin' Guitars: Instrumental Surf Bands of the Sixties is used 3 times (unable to verify). There are others I cannot check (for a variety of reason). This is enough to convince me he may be notable, but not for the reason we are saying.Slatersteven (talk) 10:45, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete It really goes without saying how ridiculous this is. Just because there’s citation overkill doesn’t mean any of these damn near 300 sources give notability. Trillfendi (talk) 19:52, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete There is neither anything notable about this person nor reliable. He just seems to be the run of the mill conspiracy theorist, which can be found by the hundreds on the Internet, with nothing new, original, or influential to say, post, or write. Paul H. (talk) 20:50, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Reply to Paul H - This will probably push the article closer to deletion by what I say here but I'll say it anyway. Hilder is not " run of the mill conspiracy theorist, which can be found by the hundreds on the Internet" as you say. Yes, he is in the conspiracy game. No doubt. But he inspired people like Alex Jones. See Anthony J Hilder Alex Jones Interview 8-24-08. Also Foster Gamble of the Thrive Movement said that Hilder was an inspiration to him. Anyway, I don't know too much about Gamble and his mov't. But anyway. Long before he got into making films, he used appear on TV interviews. See article by The Owosso Argus-Press, Aug 9, 1971 on page 9. - "TV Host Clips a Right-Winger".  There were 3 articles about him in Google News, but they've vanished now. He was a radio talk show host according to the Washington Post, May 28, 1996  - "AIR FORCE-GERMAN ALLIANCE DRAWS RIGHT-WING FLAK" by John Mintz. Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 11:28, 23 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 21:13, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Radio-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 21:15, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 21:15, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 21:15, 19 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete. Once you prune the references to unreliable sourcing, pretty much all that remains is directory entries and passing mentions. Guy (Help!) 11:34, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
 * KEEP, Notable and prominent figure in the Surf genre. The most prolific  independent surf music producer in California of independent surf bands. Anthony J. Hilder or Tony Hilder as he was known back then in the 1960s has a permanent place in surf music history. One that is undeniable. He has been the subject of articles in various publications that have done articles of the 1960's surf music scene in California. Among the music he produced, it has been used in Pulp Fiction. He co produced that with Bob Hafner. See Discogs, or AllMusic, or 45Cat, or Blue Suede News and much much more. It's more than quite surprising that this has been nominated for deletion. 07:57, 22 January 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karl Twist (talk • contribs)
 * Comment - In addition to being a major surf producer in the 1960s as Tony Hilder and sometimes Anthony Hilder, he (most likely) went under the name of Mark Hilder as well. The names are intertwined on many projects, same bands and same labels. Hilder was turning out more surf music than anyone else around . In an article by CD Review, Volume 12, page 70 Hilder is referred to as "legendary surf guru". In Steven Otfinoski's The Golden Age of Rock Instrumentals, on page Page 140, it is confirmed that Hilder was prolific. Also there's an article called "The Tony Hilder Story" in Who Put the Bomp rock magazine. His role is also confirmed by Encyclopedia of Popular Music, 2006 - Page 287 where he provided recordings to labels such as Del-Fi etc. Karl Twist (talk) 11:10, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment: I tried to verify that he was notable as a record producer. Unfortunately, I don't think he is. All of his records are incredibly obscure and only one has a Wikipedia article. To that end: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Surf's Up! At Banzai Pipeline. jps (talk) 16:16, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Reply to ජපස aka jps. Oh gosh, now Surf's Up! At Banzai Pipeline article is nominated for deletion.  So, "obscure" as you say. Not so! One of his records was used in Pulp Fiction. He also produced Bombora by The Original Surfaris plus he composed some of their material. Bombora at AllMusic. Some of his artists had their recordings released on Del-Fi. He ended up taking the label to court. See article about him in Billboard, March 26, 1966 - "Anthony Music Sues Del -Fi". His records as well as himself were the subject of the article, "The Tony Hilder Story" by Who Put the Bomp magazine, Fall 1975 (No. 14). According to the article,  Hilder's name as publisher, producer etc., appears on countless records, both 45s and albums. There have been other articles about him as well. You've also probably missed what I said about the article by CD Review, Volume 12, page 70 Hilder is referred to as "legendary surf guru". Also, in Steven Otfinoski's The Golden Age of Rock Instrumentals, on page Page 140, it was confirmed by the author that Hilder was prolific. Also music by Hilder was used in the film, The Exiles. See Time, July 18, 2008  article "Exiles on Indie Street" by Richard Corliss for confirmation, as well as the New York Times, July 11, 2008 article, "Despair and Poetry at Margins of Society" by Manohla Dargis for additional confirmation.  It's obvious that Hilder is an important part of music history. There's much more. Karl Twist (talk) 10:59, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Karl Twist (talk) 10:40, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * QUESTION - Shouldn't this have also been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions on the 19th? Karl Twist (talk) 11:45, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Below is a partial discography of the Tony Hilder catalogue. Notable artists among them. As well as being pushed through his publishing company Anthony Music, he produced and in some cases is the credited composer. I have included the singles I know about and only the albums from Impact Records at this stage. There are about 2 dozen LP albums that I can put in. I haven't included LP releases on the Northridge, Arvee, Sutton, Del-Fi, GNP, GSP or Almor labels yet. I haven't included anything from his American United catalogue either. He put out album recordings featuring Myron Fagan, Barry Goldwater, John Carradine, Colonel Curtis B. Dall with their participation.
 * Update notice: See my entry at 09:04, 25 January 2019. I have now put in List of misc albums. So this may help to give an idea of Hilder's contribution to surf music. Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 09:10, 25 January 2019 (UTC)


 * A partial discography from the Tony Hilder catalogue


 * Catalogue

There are a lot more recordings out there. 45s and LPS. When I have time, I'll probably put them in. Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 10:40, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Addition - I have now put in the List of misc albums table under the List of misc singles table. There are more albums out there, but I think I have put in enough to give folks the general idea of Hilder's contribution to the surf genre. Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 09:04, 25 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment – As I mention on my user page, I've had a variety of direct and indirect associations with the Alaskan broadcasting industry dating back to 1982. In this guise, I had a fleeting association with Hilder during his stint here in Alaska 30-some years ago, when he broadcast for several hours nightly during the early years of KEAG.  A lot of the things he said about his days in Hollywood sounded suspect to me;  for instance, he once claimed to have discovered Jill St. John.  When I searched for him on IMDB many years ago, the only credit that came up was one for scoring a documentary about a long-defunct Native American community in Los Angeles.  Anyway, most radio station articles are badly skewed towards "this article exists because there's an FCC license and/or some bottom-feeding media company involved" and say little or nothing about the station's history.  Hilder told me at the time that he had a long-term association with a Beverly Hills resident named Jerome Martz and that Martz put radio stations on the air in various places primarily to give Hilder and perhaps others a platform to air conspiracy-related talk shows.  From that, I got the impression that Anchorage wasn't the only place where Hilder did this show.  The point that's pertinent to this discussion is that Hilder did in fact receive some fairly significant coverage from local media during his time here, and that there should be scraps of evidence available via news archive services.  The one-sided discussion during the first AFD is an element of a real scourge upon the encyclopedia, in that it's okay to ignore reliable sources found on news archive services and that we're supposed to be a mindless repetition of whatever Google hands you on a silver platter, ultimately making Wikipedia useful only to the lazy and/or stupid. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions  02:51, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Reply to RadioKAOS. Hi, thanks for your input and the info. Yes Hilder has run various radio shows. Was that one you talk about, "Radio Free America" in Anchorage? See Journey's Within by Oscar Webb. I know he did others too. Ted Gunderson was interviewed some times. According to the Washington Post, May 28, 1996 article, "Air-Force German Alliance Draws Right-Wing Flak" by John Mintz, Hilder was known as a radio show then and based in L.A.. So he was on-air there. Washington Post, May 28, 1996 The film about Native Americans you refer to, I believe is The Exiles. See Time, July 18, 2008 article "Exiles on Indie Street" by Richard Corliss, as well as the New York Times, July 11, 2008 article,  "Despair and Poetry at Margins of Society" by Manohla Dargis. The music was by the band The Revels who recorded on his Impact label and had a surf hit. He produced them as well. The film appears to be of important historical "ethnographic" value. See in American Film: Voices and Visions that Shaped a Nation'' by  Daniel Bernardi, Michael Green - Page 284 to 286. The film has its own website. I recall seeing dvds of it on Ebay from time to time. It's also on Amazon. Probably a confronting film for some. I'm trying to think what else I can liken it to. I'd love to be around that time too. It's in B&W by the look of it. Interesting point you made in the last part too. Thanks. Karl Twist (talk) 08:15, 25 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment. From what's being presented, this appears to be a classic case of insufficient notability in Wikipedia's terms. While there's apparently quite of lot of information out there on this guy, what we lack is text which performs analysis &amp; synthesis of his life and work to give us knowledge which we can summarize. So it appears the material available would be great for writing a new secondary work, but Wikipedia is meant to be a tertiary work, a "summary of accepted knowledge" drawing its content from predominantly secondary sources. I can't see how what's available is amenable to encyclopedic treatment. Alexbrn (talk) 09:30, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Reply to the above. No so! To say ... "this appears to be a classic case of insufficient notability" is very incorrect and a term "Classic" gives a very incorrect picture!  First of all, Anthony J. Hilder or Tony Hilder as he was known back in the 1960s, has made a significant contribution to the genre. This has been recognized by Who Put the Bomp magazine, in its article about him, " The Tony Hilder Story ", Fall 1975 (No. 14) issue. Article says,  Hilder's name as publisher, producer etc., appears on countless records, both 45s and albums. It also says ...... "Any attempt at comprehensive survey of the surf music scene without mentioning Tony Hilder would be flagrantly incomplete". He's also referred to in another article in the issue, " Surfin' in the San Joaquin " by the same authors. Steven Otfinoski  in his The Golden Age of Rock Instrumentals, on page Page 140, confirms that Hilder was prolific. There've been other articles about him as well.  His status is confirmed in CD Review, Volume 12, page 70, where Hilder is referred to as "legendary surf guru". His label and productions have produced acts that are notable and even some minor hits. His production and label provided music for a notable film as well as music in the film Pulp Fiction. There's coverage of him enough in other articles to prove notability. There's enough info in accepted knowledge sources about him, many other than his involvement in the music industry and his prominence in the surf genre. What's suggested by what you say could be applied to half the articles in Wikipedia and they could be zapped out tomorrow. But it's not the case with this. With what we  have here on Hilder there's more than adequate info, refs to secure the article. Karl Twist (talk) 10:07, 25 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm seeing a lot of brief passing mentions but what I'm looking for is some kind of sustained writing about the guy. Could you say a bit more about "The Tony Hilder Story". Who was the author? Isn't Who Put the Bomp a very obscure fanzine which is not what we'd consider WP:RS? In short: show me your very best source. Alexbrn (talk) 10:17, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Reply to the above II and (regarding the status of Who Put the Bomp ) - There's a lot more than brief passing mentions!! OK, about "The Tonly Hilder Story". It was written by John Blair and Bill Smart. You can see it on the Association for Recorded Sound Collections website. Here Bibliography of Discographies Annual Cumulation -- 1975 (Page 42). And who is John Blair? Well, he is a respected authority on surf music.  The releases he has contributed liner notes for include, The Challengers - Surfbeat, Sundazed Records SC 6029, 1994, Dick Dale & the Del-Tones - King of The Surf Guitar: The Best of Dick Dale & The Del-Tones, Rhino Records R2 75756, 1989, The Torquays and VA comps such as Lost Legends of Surf Guitar, Vol. IV, Sundazed Records SC 11143, 2005, etc as per. Magazines include Discoveries, Goldmine,  Guitar Player and Vintage Guitar etc, as per. No! Who Put the Bomp is not "a very obscure fanzine". See, Who Put the Bomp was a magazine by the late great Greg Shaw of the record label with the same name. Mentioned here in Media and Popular Music by By Peter Mills. The mag was referred to as a "pioneering rock'n roll mag" by Chris Morris in Billboard in its October 30, 1999 issue. Says it here. I know a fair bit about the mag. It's been sourced by Record Collector and mags about 60s music and Punk. Shindig. Having an interest in the Surf music genre, I check things out. Lenny Kaye a Rolling Stone contributor worked for the mag. It also launched the careers of music journalists Lester Bangs and Griel Marcus. See here. Anyway, back to Who Put the Bomp, the magazine is held in high esteem and (as Billboard puts it), a "pioneering magazine. It's outlaw status is a matter of fact. Simon Sheikh of e-flux confirms this. In Journal #63 - March 2015 Circulation and Withdrawal, Part II: Withdrawal. The mag is a valued source for 60s surf music, neo-surf, punk. etc. A respected, reliable source. Oh, and like John Blair of Who Put the Bomp doing liner notes, Hilder now out of the music game for some years did in the 1990s for punk and weird & wonderful groups on the Hillsdale label such as The Trashwomen, Jackie And The Cedrics, Boss Martians, The King Normals, and The Tiki Men etc. Karl Twist (talk) 11:38, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * So have you got access to this "The Tony Hilder Story" source? Alexbrn (talk) 12:00, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Reply to the above III, why are you spacing things out like you are? Why don't you put your replies in the normal flow configuration? Karl Twist (talk)
 * Fixed. Anyway, have you got the source. What can you tell me about what it says? Who is the publisher? Isn't this just a discography? Alexbrn (talk) 12:14, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Reply to the above IV, Yes I have access to it. Unsure of the publisher and that doesn't matter. The article starts on page 12 and continues on page 13. It talks about Hilder's time at Kent and Modern Records etc. Other labels he did. Producing bands etc. Stuff about his wife providing vocalizations on "Church Key" and his move to the right wing and also connection with Efrem Zimbalist Jr. and Barry Goldwater, and to his selling products in the 1970s etc. That's why it's called "The Tony Hilder Story". It's an article and a discography. ......   The magazine is respected and has been sourced by major rock pubs. According to The Guardian, the magazine expanded in the 1970s and morphed into the. record label. According to music magazine, Ugly Things, Who Put the Bomp was a "seminal rock fanzine". So, what do we have here? Well, we have ....  a  "pioneering rock'n roll mag" (according to Billboard, which is also a seminal rock ranzine (according to Ugly Things), which was run by Greg Shaw who according to The Guardian) was assistant head of creative services for United Artists and edited Phonograph Record, doing an article about a man who, (according to CD Review) is a "legendary Surf Guru" etc, etc. And the referred to as pioneering seminal magazine says .....   "Any attempt at comprehensive survey of the surf music scene without mentioning Tony Hilder would be flagrantly incomplete". BTW: You still have to fix the other spacing error for your entry at 10:17, 25 January 2019. Karl Twist (talk) 13:23, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * "Pioneering" rings alarm bells. What we want is settled knowledge. This source doesn't sound very promising. The publisher does matter as if it's self-published (as most fanzines ares) it's not usable here per WP:BLPSPS. Alexbrn (talk) 13:32, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Reply to the above V - Doesn't ring any alarm bell at all! The magazine is regarded as a reliable source for other publications. Rock's Backpages refers to it as an influential rock music fanzine. Anyway it seems that your attempts to dispute the obvious, and make it seem like some amateur insignificant mag are just taking this in circles. Magazine is reliable just as the subject is notable. Unfortunately Hilder happens to be a 9/11 Truther, making films like 911 : The Greatest Lie ever Sold with Jeff Friesen, and his involvement with Myron Fagan, recording him at the same studio where he recorded surf groups, and being friends of Bill Cooper (see Red Dirt Report BOOK REVIEW: "Pale Horse Rider" by Mark Jacobson), have put him into the Tin foil hat category, and we see the "Let's sweep this rubbish up" attitude . Karl Twist (talk) 14:17, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Even if the Bomp source was good (which I doubt), we've the hard policy problem of WP:BLPSPS whereby we simply can't use 'zines for biographies. Alexbrn (talk) 15:26, 25 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete Keep. Scrips and scraps of information in various sources do not sufficient notability make. There would seem to be enough primary material "out there" for somebody to write a reasonable secondary piece on this guy, but until that exists (or is found) Hilder is not a suitable subject for encyclopedic treatment. Alexbrn (talk) 14:52, 25 January 2019 (UTC); Amended to keep in light of sourced unearthed below. 13:08, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Reply to the above - Great choice of words by the way, "Scrips and scraps of information". Ha! You've ignored the obvious facts about Hilder's contribution to surf music that has been documented. The coverage in Who Put the Bomp and other books relateing to the Surf Genre. He's notable in that he he's been covered in publications about the surf genre. He has produced, composed more than a couple of classic songs in surf genre, "Surf Bird" was one, etc. He's been covered in acceptable, reliable articles. Also his Bio on AllMusic says he dealt with major labels. He has made a significant contribution to the genre! OK, music aside for now. Seems he appeared on TV many times, more than the times he was kicked off which includeLou Gordon's TV show (see The Owosso Argus-Press, August 9, 1971 - Page 13 TV Host Clips a Right-Winger). That was also talked about in the interview of Hilder in the Los Angeles Free Press, (August 4, 1972 Part Two, P. 6), Gordon's show was on Ch. 15, Kaiser Broadcasting station. I know he's interviewed Republican politician George V. Hansen on tv about the Panama Canal. The 3 page article about Hilder, and interview (see Los Angeles Free Press, August 4, 1972 Part Two, Pages 6 to 8. article: "Free Rightist Interview) on page 7 says he was the director of various organizations COBRA (Committees Opposed to Racism and Bigotry in America), and the founder of BBC (Boycott British Committee). Also on the page it says he was a member of the Free Rightist Movement (A Libertarian organization). So he would have appeared on TV multiple times.  His status in politics and radio host (though not easy to track down immediately) is shown in very reliable sources. The reason why there's a desire to delete this article appears to be because of the fact that Hilder has prominence in the Truth movement, involvement with people like Mark Dice, Myron Fagan, Anthony Sutton, Senior FBI whistle blower Ted Gunderson, and  Bill Cooper the activist. So in a bid to clean up the tin foil hat nonsense we delete a notable, important and integral part of surf music and California Music history! Oh, and Hilder also recorded Latino artists too that are not mentioned in the discography. Karl Twist (talk) 06:02, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: This is a train wreck of a debate. I would urge the participants here to cut down on the walls of text and limit themselves to their main arguments. If a subject is notable, all it needs is two or three in-depth sources to show that, not reams and reams of text that I for one am not going to read.
 * Notice to the closing admin There's an issue here that needs to be addressed. I ask that you to please extend the time for another week. First of all, this article should have been listed in the list of Music-related deletion discussions category. It hasn't, so it had a fair hearing! At 11:45, 23 January 2019, I asked the question, "Shouldn't this have also been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions on the 19th?" and nobody replied. Also because Anthony J. Hilder has been put on the Fringe theories/Noticeboard, and I believe it has attracted more of a one sided view of the argument. Can we re-run it for another week please and with Hilder listed in the Music related discussions?  Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 06:36, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm seeing a lot of mentions in book, just a few here . Most of them however appear to be just passing mentions. I'm assuming Karl Twist is claiming notability based on WP:MUSICBIO #7, which he should clearly state to be so if true. He should however recognize that Discogs is not consider a reliable site per WP:RSP, and should avoid filling the article with references that don't contribute to notability, in fact obscuring what might be the useful ones. I'm leaning towards keep, but the article needs tidying up. Hzh (talk) 15:37, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 21:42, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep I have ignored the entirety of the debate above, and the article, and went and looked for reliable sources myself. Significant coverage in this book (as Tony Hilder), this Encyclopedia of Popular Music (page 287), this feature in the The Observer newspaper, another in the Times-News, these satisfy WP:BIO.--Pontificalibus 12:06, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - This still hasn't been listed in Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Music Thanks - Karl Twist (talk) 12:39, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep - I'm satisfied by the evidence of notability provided by Karl above.-- N Ø  17:41, 27 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment: User:Ronz has been editing out content which I believe is integral to the article to give a picture of Hilder's political stance. All the refs are credible and reliable sources. To me it's bordering on vandalism. I just ask that this stop until the AFD process is finished. It also hinders further research that could improve the article even more. Refs edited out are ,* The Observer, 21 May 1995, The Observer 21 May 1995, The Observer Page 117 Cults Militias ..... The Owosso Argus-Press, August 9, 1971 - Page 13 "TV Host Clips a Right-Winger" ..... The Village Voice, February 2, 1976 - Page 25 "Bozo and the Pink Pimp" ..... Who Put the Bomp, No.14, Fall 1975 - Page 12 "The Tony Hilder Story" by John Blair & Bill Smart ..... Los Angeles Free Press, August 4, 1972 Part Two, Pages 6 to 8. article: "Free Rightist Interview" Thanks Karl Twist (talk) 10:12, 30 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Karl Twist (talk) 08:29, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep There are enough sources as given above to indicate notability and they should satisfy WP:GNG. The article is still a mess and needs reorganizing, but that is a separate issue. Hzh (talk) 15:50, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem (talk) 00:23, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep I have not looked at the article or most of the content above, but from the sources given by 3 editors immediately above, it appears that there is significant and sustained coverage in independent, reliable sources, so he meets WP:BASIC. It seems that part of the coverage is for his music industry work, and part for his conspiracy views, but it's not necessary for him to meet specific notability criteria when there is sufficient overall for him to meet WP:BASIC. If the article needs improving, that is another issue (and, from the comments made above, seems to be controversial in itself). RebeccaGreen (talk) 02:29, 3 February 2019 (UTC)


 * CONCERNS I am concerned about the recent edits that are happening. Possibly too much content may be taken out which may hinder improvement of the page as well as some of the good refs. Could we please keep an eye to make sure not too much is removed too soon. BTW: Here is a viewable article: Who Put the Bomp, No.14, Fall 1975 - Page 12 - 13 "The Tony Hilder Story"


 * Articles, sources etc to improve the page This can improve the article with content from these. Karl Twist (talk) 12:45, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment – When I last left comments here, I mentioned coverage from reliable sources during his brief stay in Anchorage, Alaska approximately 30 years ago. I'm a little busy with real life as of late and haven't had the time to go to a library to examine the following in further detail.  Additionally, it appears that NewsBank has changed its preview mode a little bit over the years, understandable when you consider that they're on the net to make money, not to assist free information scavengers.  Anyway, as seen here, a NewsBank search of the Anchorage Daily News turns up 28 hits stretching over a span of four years.  At least four or five of those hits appear to constitute significant coverage of Hilder or his activities while in Anchorage.  That includes the hits from 1992, or after Hilder left town.  If Hilder worked in radio in many different markets as has been claimed, it would follow that he would have received similar coverage elsewhere.  A place like Los Angeles would be an exception to that rule, as the local media there gives greater emphasis to stories pertaining to topics such as celebrity worship and car chases on the freeway.  As for the claim that zines don't count as reliable sources, the article on Factsheet Five states that zines were of sufficent enough interest to major libraries such as the New York State Library and the San Francisco Public Library that they include them in their collections. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions  03:07, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.