Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-Welsh sentiment


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was no consenus. I suggest some of the rewriting and renaming discussed below takes place - if not, this could be brought back to AFD in a few months. Neıl ☎  09:41, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Anti-Welsh sentiment

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Not really an enyclopedia article as such, more selected quotes and incidents that are disparaging to Welsh people. Similar articles could be written on any subject, but I don't think they should exist and neither should this one really. One Night In Hackney 303  03:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete alleged sources don't seem to use this term--WP:SYNTH. JJL (talk) 03:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep until it can be merged into one of the other discrimination articles, e.g., discrimination in the United Kingdom. MrPrada (talk) 05:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep I'm sure this is well documented in the Welsh language, even if it isn't well documented in English (perhaps there is a reason why). The only issue with these Anti-X articles is that they have a tendency to accumulate original research, since the only Anti-X term that has an entire field of study dedicated to it is antisemitism. The way the article is formatted isn't a good reason for deletion; that can always be corrected. Is there a body or interest group similar to the Anti-Defamation League that the Welsh have created? If so, that could be a good litmus test to check whether or not this is solely OR. -Rosywounds (talk) 06:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As you say it isn't very well documented in English (for reasons it might be best not to go into). There was an article in The Independent some months ago, but I haven't been able to find it. There is plenty of documentation in Welsh, but if I use that, I'll only be reminded yet again that "this is the English Wikipedia". The title is for uniformity with similar articles - most of which are completely unsourced, whereas everything here is sourced. If anybody doesn't like the way it is written, please feel free to rewrite it, but I can't see that that is a reason for deletion. Neither is the fact that it may be unpalatable to some English people. Cantiorix (talk) 08:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment No racist attacks please. One Night In Hackney  303  09:54, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete. A minor species of xenophobia. A collection of feeble anti-welsh jokes and jibes is not encyclopaedic. I am Welsh but live in Birmingham. It would be the work of moments on google to find and list comments critical of Brummies and their whingy accent or, alternatively, scally Liverpudlians but why? --MJB (talk) 12:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep but improve and (probably) rename - e.g. as "Cultural relationship between England and Wales"?. There is potentially a good article to be written on the relationship between the English and Welsh, which is the subject of both humour and (occasional) racism from both sides (and, for instance, the subject of a recent book - see ).  This article could be a starting point for that.  The article could link in with Welsh nationalism and Welsh culture, and also address the widespread English fear/distaste of those.  It could also address the influence of the Welsh on modern English culture - eg in politics generally, and in specific areas such as Liverpool and Bristol.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment This actually sounds like a good idea to me. I think that if there isn't enough English language documentation, then it could be better fit as a subsection in such an article. -Rosywounds (talk) 18:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment This is article is not about the "cultural relationship between England and Wales" any more than slavery was a cultural relationship between blacks and whites. There is a power imbalance which means that racism is a thing that the English do to the Welsh, not vice versa. Believe me, I wish that the roles were reversed and that the Welsh were able to oppress and discriminate against the English, but unfortunately that is not the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Delboy666 (talk • contribs) 20:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Weak keep. At the moment there's definitely some WP:SYNTH here but I believe this should be expanded and improved with more examples from a historical context.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 22:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete, classic inherent WP:SYN. Previous articles like this one have been mercilessly deleted; see Articles for deletion/Pakistanphobia, Articles for deletion/Anti-Croatian sentiment (also deleted here were Anti-Hungarian sentiment, Anti-Bosniak attitude, Albanophobia), Articles for deletion/Anti-Hellenism, Articles for deletion/Anti-Slav-Macedonian sentiment, Articles for deletion/Estophobia. If one looks at the arguments made trhere, they all boil down ultimately to WP:SYN, and it's not a question of sources, as many of the deleted articles offered more sources than here.--Aldux (talk) 15:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: You haven't commented on my suggestion above, to expand it as "Cultural relationship between England and Wales" - this would identify and present information on the relationship in a wider and an even-handed way. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I've certainly nothing against such an article being written, however I don't think the current article should remain in mainspace in the interim, I'm sure an admin can userfy it on request. The present examples certainly don't show "In the United Kingdom, anti-Welsh sentiment is widespread in England and, to a much lesser extent, can be encountered in Scotland", which was removed by me. There's little doubt there's plenty of banter between the various home nations, which the current article seems to mostly consist of. A. A. Gill isn't exactly known for his serious columns, Anne Robinson's much criticised remarks were on a comedy show after all. As for Huw Edwards, this country practically thrives on complaining - the Brass Eye episode that people watched despite the warnings and complained anyway, or didn't watch it at all, and ditto with Jerry Springer: The Opera. I'm not suggesting there isn't a degree of anti-Welsh sentiment in England (although it's pushing it a bit to describe it as "a hatred or fear of Wales, the Welsh people or Welsh culture", but the current attempt to synthesise individual incidents to make it out to be widespread is very dubious. One Night In Hackney  303  17:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep until it is rewritten to be more consistent with other discrimination articles. Discrimination against the Welsh is so prevalent among the English that they find it hard to recognize. Quotations such as those by Gill cannot be usefully described as "banter". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Delboy666 (talk • contribs) 20:39, 28 February 2008 (UTC)  — Delboy666 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment. Serbophobia anyone? What about Anti-Russian sentiment, a pivotal topic in Russian thought and politics, from Dostoevsky to Shafarevich (and Putin)? What about Francophobia (see also Anti-French sentiment in the United States)? Ever heard of Anti-Irish racism? Hardly irrelevant topics, imo. L&#39;omo del batocio (talk) 08:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - it's a definite cultural strand and one that makes a lot of difference to many Welsh people. Eithin (talk) 13:27, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.