Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/April O'Neil (pornographic actress)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Coverage is clearly on the thin side, but this discussion hinges on that one award. Without agreement on that matter, I cannot find consensus to delete. Drmies (talk) 18:03, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

April O'Neil (pornographic actress)

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

AVN award (twitter queen) not significant award and XBIZ award (girl/girl actress) scene related. No independent biographical detailed sourced to reliable sources for this person. was one of 16 porn actresses to appear in a documentary and is not mentioned by name in the review except being listed as one of those interviewed. As an interview the film is a primary source and does not therefore count.

What all this leaves us is a BLP without any decent sourcing and a subject who does not meet the GNG and/or PORNBIO... Spartaz Humbug! 21:52, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Speedy keep. The Girl/Girl Performer of the Year win is not scene-related, and the source proves this.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 22:44, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That "source" proves nothing of the kind. It is simply a list of the awards, with no content whatever explaining/describing the criteria by which award recipients are chosen. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 20:27, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * A list of winners from the official website proves nothing? That's like saying including a mention of someone winning an Emmy sourced from emmys.com proves nothing.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 08:23, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * You're deliberately misquoting me, Erpert, and that's disruptive and dishonest. Just stop it. I said it proved nothing regarding the claim you cited it for, and you haven't disputed it. Tendentiously trying to muddy the waters rather than reasonably discussing the issues is grossly inappropriate behaviour. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 17:38, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Erpert provided a list of the 2014 XBIZ Award winners as evidence that "Girl/Girl Performer of the Year" is not a scene-related category. You stated that the list proved nothing and that we should disregard it. I'm not sure why I should have to explain this when it is so obvious, but if O'Neil would have received that award for a particular sex scene, which she didn't, the film would be mentioned in the list along with her co-star(s) and the production company. We know this because all of the scene-related categories on that list mention the film, all of the participants in the scene, and the production company. O'Neil is listed under the "Girl/Girl Performer of the Year" category all by herself. That list does prove that "Girl/Girl Performer of the Year" is not a scene-related category, although I'm not even sure we should be debating this. I mean, what could possibly make you think that a category with the phrase "Performer of the Year" in it's name is scene-related? Rebecca1990 (talk) 22:07, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Granted, HW didn't call the win scene-related (it was actually Spartaz who did that), but he did !vote "delete" lower in this discussion by claiming that the award is a "token award for a few of [XBIZ's] clients/advertisers who didn't show up in any other categories". You have used this kind of argument in several AfDs before, HW; the problem is, you have yet to actually prove that that is the case. Do you or someone you know work for XBIZ? Is there a page on xbiz.com detailing how and why categories are created? Basically, no matter how many times you state that opinion (and no matter how many other people might agree with you), if you can't provide proof of that claim, all it is is, well, just that: an unsourced opinion, which doesn't really hold much weight against sources that the other participants in the discussion provide. (SN: Disagreeing with you is disruptive and dishonest? Yeah, good luck with that one.) Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 06:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep. Passes WP:PORNBIO. Has two well-known and significant industry awards. Her AVN Award for "Twitter Queen" is indeed significant. It's an AVN Award, the "Oscars of porn". And it is not a scene-related or ensemble category, which are the only categories excluded by PORNBIO. She was also selected as the winner of that category through fan voting. What better evidence than that is there that she also passes the second criteria in WP:ENTERTAINER which states "Has a large fan base"? And her XBIZ Award for "Girl/Girl Performer of the Year" is not scene related. She was given that award for her entire body of work throughout 2013, not for a particular sex scene. Rebecca1990 (talk) 14:38, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Rebecca, please stop making deliberately false statements in your attempts to influence deletion debates. You know perfectly well that consensus in the lengthy and exhausting debates over PORNBIO was that both the award category and the awarding organization were taken into account in determining whether a particular award met the "well-known"/"significant" standard, and that scene-ensemble/related categories were not the only exclusions. You pushed your view at length in discussions regarding "MILF" category awards, and it was rejected; as User:Morbidthoughts, who is hardly one of the anti-porn editors you complain about often enough, stated in one of those discussions, there are "insignificant token award[s]", even from AVN, that fail the PORNBIO test. And, by the way, what is your source for the claim that the "Girl-Girl Performer" award is not scene-related? It certainly can't be given for her "entire body of work", because a quick check of IAFD listings shows "girl-girl" scenes are a pretty small part of it. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 20:58, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm "making deliberately false statements"? I'm simply stating the fact that PORNBIO does not exclude any other categories besides scene related and ensemble ones. That is not a false statement, it's the truth. And it's going to take a better argument than WP:I just don't like it to exclude any other ones. Several adult industry A-listers have already been deleted under the current, unfair PORNBIO guideline, so why do you insist on trying to make it even stricter? And then you act surprised when people wonder if you're anti-porn. The fact is that numerous articles on notable porn stars have been deleted this year, and it was you who started most of those AfD's and PROD's. I would really like to know why articles on non notable porn stars who have become anti-porn activists, such as Nadia Styles and Holly Ryder, never get deleted, but articles on notable pro-porn porn stars do. And you pointed out that IAFD lists very few girl/girl scenes for O'Neil. Here's the thing: IAFD is a database of adult films that have been released on DVD or VHS (back in the day). IAFD does not keep track of internet only porn scenes. Recently, IAFD has started to add internet only scenes from Brazzers and Kink.com (highlighted in yellow in performer filmography lists), but they haven't finished doing that yet and they continue to focus primarily on expanding their database with DVD titles. Perhaps O'Neil appeared in several more girl/girl scenes in 2013 which aren't listed on IAFD because they were internet only. And even if she did do less girl/girl scenes in 2013 than all the other Girl/Girl Performer of the Year nominees did, why does that matter? All this does is demonstrate that these adult industry awards are about quality, not quantity. You said that O'Neil did not attend the ceremony to accept her award. I don't know if this is true or not, but what does that have to do with the awards significance? In fact, this just proves that your claim that XBIZ is a "PR business" whose awards and nominations are "purchased" by their "clients", is false. Do you really think that someone would pay to win award and then not show up to accept it? Rebecca1990 (talk) 00:12, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Weak keep. The XBIZ Girl/Girl Performer win does meet the letter of WP:PORNBIO. However other winners under niche categories (e.g. Bridgette B - Unsung Siren) have been deleted as not notable. Completely fails GNG. • Gene93k (talk) 17:28, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you bring up Unsung awards because those aren't the ones we are discussing here, but I just wanted to point out that there is an equal amount of Keep vs. Delete votes in Bridgette B's AfD. Bridgette B is currently the only AVN, XRCO, or FAME award recipient of an underrated/unsung award without a WP article. The category may seem controversial, but they is no consensus to exclude it from PORNBIO. Rebecca1990 (talk) 00:26, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete. There appears to be no dispute that the subject fails the GNG by a country mile. The "Twitter Queen" award, like all the AVN Fan Awards, fails the well-known/significant component of PORNBIO; the awards are (allegedly) determined by a website poll, which allows you to vote not just multiple times but daily, as well as allowing anyone who can access the voting site via dynamic IP addressing to vote an effectively unlimited number of times. The results of such a poll can hardly be said to be significant, the outcome is easy to manipulate, and such a survey is generally regarded as worthless. The "Girl-Girl Performer Award" is neither well-known nor significant; XBIZ created it just this year as a token award for a few of its clients/advertisers who didn't show up in any other categories. (And, according to IAFD. O'Neal performed in only four such scenes in 2013, making one wonder just what the award criteria are.) Another point against significance: she reportedly didn't even bother to attend the awards ceremony. The bottom line is (or should be) this: she by all accounts fails the GNG, and, if she passes PORNBIO, it's a narrow and technical pass at best. We often enough delete mainstream performers who technically pass NACTOR (for example, performers with multiple recurring but minor roles on soap operas. There's no basis for special, favorable treatment for porn performers. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 21:38, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "XBIZ created [the category] just this year as a token award for a few of its clients/advertisers who didn't show up in any other categories." Two questions:
 * 1) How do you know that's why it was created?
 * 2) Why does it matter if it was created this year? (And if you can't respond civilly or without using bold print, don't respond at all.)  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 08:23, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep. Subtropical -man   talk   (en-2)   18:02, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be kept, but stating why would really help.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 05:42, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment. One other thing that should be mentioned though, is that in spite of all the porn bios that have been brought to AfD, I have yet to see one deleted on an actor who not only won a notable porn award, but the award win was even mentioned in the delete rationale. It didn't work with Capri Anderson, it didn't work with Leilani Leeane , and I doubt it's going to work here.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 05:42, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep per above - Passes GNG & PORNBIO, Also I echo Erpert's concerns - Is there any award on these notable ? .... At this rate there aint gonna be any porno model articles left here. – Davey 2010 •  (talk)  15:55, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
 * What did you ask?  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 05:39, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah was away with the fairies! – Davey 2010 •  (talk)  05:47, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment. Found more evidence of her notability; her popularity is noted by at least two mainstream media outlets (Complex & LA Weekly). I have added them to the article. Rebecca1990 (talk) 10:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep per Erpert and sources found by .-- cyclopia speak! 09:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete per Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. Lior (talk) 16:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete per Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. StainlessSteelScorpion (talk) 23:41, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 17:12, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

 
 * Weak keep This is a tough one.  Nonetheless, I am inclined to believe the Xbiz award is a significant industry award, and not a scene or assembly award.  Thus, it complies with the letter of WP:PORNBIO.  Furthermore, Ms. O'Neil has garnered some coverage in non-industry publications, indicating she has some notability.-- danntm T C 06:09, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete. Concur with Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. Finnegas (talk) 16:08, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment. Found more mainstream coverage in Rolling Stone and Complex. I have added the sources to the article. Rebecca1990 (talk) 17:52, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep per PORNBIO and GNG. Not just the award, the subject got reliable mainstream coverage (Complex Magazine, Rolling Stone and particularly LA Weekly) and was portrayed on a very notable documentary film alongside some of the most notable adult performers of the 2000s, something which sounds a strong indicator of notability. Unconvincing arguments for deletion. Cavarrone  18:53, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, j⚛e deckertalk 22:31, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep. I find Erpert's argument persuasive. -71.112.198.23 (talk) 02:36, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep Award-winner and coverage in reliable sources. Dcfc1988 (talk) 22:24, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep. I see no reason to regard her XBIZ award as not meeting the requirements of WP:PORNBIO. The only case against her seems to be that it is in a new category, but the other substantively similar XBIZ award categories are regarded as meeting the standard, and it would be silly to delete articles every time they change or rename the categories only to have someone rewrite them the following year when the award is no longer new. --Sammy1339 (talk) 02:12, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.