Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Archibald Murray Campbell


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Salvio 16:53, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Archibald Murray Campbell

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Does not appear to meet WP:GNG - the claim to notability is that he was the head of some local organisations? One of a number of articles created by a WP:COI editor about his family members, this appears to be a historical/genealogical biography entry rather than encyclopedic. Melcous (talk) 13:48, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - I've checked the first two citations, and some of the claims made in the lede are not supported by the citations. I've not bothered to check the rest of the article yet, but it would not be surprising if there are other exaggerations, as this seems to be an editing pattern of the article creator. Netherzone (talk) 14:36, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * comment response, He's taken this to Special:Diff/972949471 Article Rescue Squadron without being upfront about COI... again. He also participated in this AfD without coming forward about COI, until it was pointed out, despite having been consulted by other editors in the recent past. Graywalls (talk) 06:31, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete -, well, if refs 1 and 2 aren't adequate for the claims made there, I'm sorry to say the rest of them aren't adequate either. Ref 3 does confirm that he died at Mt Vernon but it doesn't do anything to prove notability. Ref 4 is from Findagrave which isn't a reliable source, so the whole of the 'Marriage and children' section is unsourced, and it does nothing for notability either even if sources can be found. Ref 5 states that Bank of Mt Vernon was sold, dated Dec. 24, with Archibald M. Campbell among the listed purchasers. It does not confirm he became president, nor that there was a Trust Co., nor that he was president for 21 years. The brief mention is not proof of notability. Ref 6 merely notes that there was a move in Congress to amend the Bank Merger Act and that Mount Vernon Trust Co. was among a list of banks with mergers approved on Dec. 29, 1950. This does not show notability either. It seems that Campbell was a medical worthy in Mt Vernon but this sorry sourcing (of someone's ancestor?), probably all that can be found, doesn't make him notable. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:14, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * P. S. I've had a quick look at other Henderson family members, and some of them need to come to AfD as well. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep Below is basic criteria of Dr. Archibald M. Campbell's notability:
 * WP:BASIC Significant coverage in multiple published newspapers including:


 * 1) Mayor-elect Edward F. Brush announced the oppointment of Dr. Archibald M. Campbell, the richest physician of the city, to be President of the health board.
 * 2) As a 19th century doctor, Campbell wrote an article in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology about how kumyss was used to treat gastrointestinal disorders.
 * 3) Pominent physician and surgeon in Westchester County, first President of the Mount Vernon Trust Company.
 * 4) Noted County Surgeon, Trustee of the East Chester Savings Bank in Mount Vernon.
 * 5) President of the medical board and consulting physician and surgeon to the Mount Vernon Hospital.
 * 6) From 1903-1907 he was president of the Mount Vernon Board of Health.
 * 7) He was first President of the Siwanoy County Club in Bronxville.
 * 8) Campbell gifted $250,000 for a new hospital wing at the Mount Vernon Hospital.
 * 9) Rev. Charles K. Gilbert dedicated a large sanctuary window at the Trinity Episcopal Church in memory of Dr. Campbell.
 * 10) Dr. Campbell was a celebrated physician, churchman, and financier.
 * 11) Dr. Campbell's medical diploma is from the College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York. COI editor: --Greg Henderson (talk) 16:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Greghenderson2006, it has been told to you multiple times by other editors that you should disclose yourself as a COI editor when you participate in an AfD discussion on an article which you have a COI. Graywalls (talk) 15:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Reply Graywalls, Yes, I may have a COI as Dr. Archibald M. Campbell is related to my wife. He was her great-grandfather. We never knew him, but heard about him as being a notable doctor in New York. I decided to do some research on his life and found some interesting noteworthy primary and secondary sources. --Greg Henderson (talk) 16:05, 13 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete I can't understand why this individual is notable. Yes, he was esteemed and venerated in his community, but there are millions of upstanding citizens, past and present, who don't have a Wikipedia article. The New York Times obituary is pretty good but similarly not every person who has a decent obituary is notable. I don't think that the number of sources really counts in this case as there is little relevant content in them. To quote WP:BASIC, "trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability". Curiocurio (talk) 21:12, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Curiocurio, please see Campell's Talk page, which has some new citations, most notable are Request Edit E - G; i.e., Dr. Campbell wrote on Kumyss in the treatment of Cholera in the American Journal of Obstetrics.--Greg Henderson (talk) 21:41, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I read those request edits before making my comments. I just don't see what he had done that could be considered significant enough to warrant an article. There's more to notability than totaling up sources, quality is what counts. The achievements have to be remarkable or noteworthy in some way, not solely being a good person. Curiocurio (talk) 22:11, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Good, then you will see that there is significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, independent of the subject, that support WP:BASIC requirements i.e., Picture of Dr. Campbell and the unvelling of a memorial window; and An honor given to Dr. Archibald M. Campbell for 50 years of service; and Noted County Surgeon, Trustee of the East Chester Savings Bank in Mount Vernon. Not to mention, he was president of the Mount Vernon bank, first president of a Golf Club and a celebrated physician, churchman, and financier. If this is not notable, then I don't understand the definition (worthy of attention or notice, of particular interest, worthy of mention, worth taking a look at, remarkable). --Greg Henderson (talk) 22:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - Sorry to disappoint, but the article on Kumyss (published by another doctor) cites a case where Dr. Campbell treated a child with fermented horse milk as a cure for cholera. This had no lasting impact on cholera treatment whatsoever; it is not a notable "discovery" that significantly changed the course of modern medicine. Things like the mayor-elect appointing the richest doctor in the area to a board seems like politics as usual, nothing about it distinguishes the tens of thousands of other wealthy people who have rubbed shoulders with politicians. Same with his son donating a window to a church in his honor. People with money do those things because they can; it's called self-aggrandizement. I'm not seeing anything remarkable: he was born, got a degree to practice medicine, had a lot of money, was mentioned in a published paper, got involved with finance and the country club and died. Then his son donated a window. These things may seem remarkable or important to you because he is related to your family which can cloud one's POV. I'm still looking through the citations, and will hold off !voting for now. Netherzone (talk) 18:34, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete another one of family memorization genealogy entry. The article subject does not have sufficient notability to warrant a page in a global encyclopedia. Graywalls (talk) 00:33, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Article Rescue Squadron the COI article creator related to the family has taken this to Rescue Squadron. Special:Diff/972949471, and did not notify that he's done so, as expected and clearly shown in the nomination instruction which says "You should disclose in a deletion discussion that a post has been made at the rescue list." Graywalls (talk) 06:39, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 13:40, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 13:40, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. Graywalls (talk) 06:35, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete - I checked through all of the sourcing in the article, and the requested edit sources, and have concluded that there is nothing to substantiate this individual’s notability. There is no depth of coverage. He was a local doctor and local financier, and probably a very nice person. However, there is nothing to validate that he was particularly notable in any of these areas; nothing remarkable or significant. As a doctor, he lived during a time of major medical break-throughs, yet his only contribution was to administer fermented horse milk to children with cholera during a time when multiple treatments for cholera existed such as the invention of cholera vaccines, antibiotic treatment, intravenous fluids, electrolyte replenishment, etc. Yes, he was a wealthy, “rich physician” and he succeeded in his business ventures, but they were local news and nothing out of the ordinary, especially for the time period. Fails: WP:GNG, WP: ANYBIO, WP:ACADEMIC, WP:RSMED. Here’s an analysis of the sources:


 * Article sources:


 * 1) Equivalent to Who’s Who. Too old to be a valid medical reliable source –– See WP:AGEMATTERS and WP:MEDDATE
 * 2) Trivial - One sentence mention: “the richest physician” in Mount Vernon, NY
 * 3) Obit – this is the only potential RS, and is not enough to establish notability. It does establish that he lived, practiced medicine, made financial investments, and was a well-liked person. But it is no different than the tens perhaps hundreds of thousands of other obits out there. The flowery language is typical of the time period.
 * 4) Trivial - One sentence mention that he and a group of men bought the Bank of Mt. Vernon.
 * 5) Does not mention him.
 * Requested edit sources:


 * 1) A. Family Search (an unreliable user-submitted deprecated source)
 * 2) B. Same obit as item 3
 * 3) C1. Trivial - Local paper – social congratulations; C2. Trivial mentions he’s a member of the Mt. Vernon NY Medical Society C3. Trivial article about crowing roosters and barking dogs  at night and mentions that he apparently disapproved of it.
 * 4) D. Trivial - Is about his son posthumously donating a window to a church in his honor.
 * 5) E. Trivial - His church gave him a tribute because he went to the same church for 61 years.
 * 6) F1. Article by another local Mt. Vernon physician with a trivial mention that he treated a child with fermented horse milk as a treatment for cholera. There was absolutely no lasting impact of this treatment and it is not considered a valid medical achievement, nor is it a cure for cholera. F2. same as F1. F3. self-authored five-page synopsis of his use of fermented horse milk to try to cure cholera (primary source). F4. & F5. same thing. This is an irrelevant marginal idea and treatment. Also see WP:AGEMATTERS and WP:MEDDATE and WP:RSMED and WP:MEDINDY
 * 7) G. Local obit; obit from organization he was a member of; death notice in college alumni newsletter. Netherzone (talk) 23:05, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Netherzone Thanks for your review. I appreciate the time you took to review my article. I believe the Dr. Campbell article is well written and includes primary and secondary citations. If you compare the article with these: Flossie Cohen, Nate Mack, Arthur Gillette, and Anu Prestonia, based on the same categories, you will see that Archibald Murray Campbell is far more WP:BASIC, WP:GNG, and WP:RS. I have a WP:COI with this article, but an advocate for WP:WPBIO. --Greg Henderson (talk) 03:48, 19 August 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.