Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Architectural school of Nakhchivan


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. In my judgment, the sources cited by Interfase strongly weaken the earlier arguments that this school of architecture does not exist. The remaining arguments that the article is OR or advocacy (or, if I may add, very badly written) do not preclude a "keep" outcome, as they can be remedied by editing. This discussion also does not preclude a discussion about merging the topic with, e.g., Architecture of Azerbaijan.  Sandstein  06:57, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Architectural school of Nakhchivan

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The article is OR. The subject of the article does not exist: there is no term called "Architectural school of Nakhchivan" and the content has been copied from information already in various Nachchivan-related articles Meowy 01:11, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete I reviewed the references for the articles, and they largely consist of broken links and links which do not refer to the Architectural school of Nakhchivan. I can find no sources at all mentioning this topic, and I don't see any material in this article which can be proven to be accurate.  There already exists an article architecture of Azerbaijan, which would cover the region in question. NJ Wine (talk) 04:15, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete per NJ Wine; no substance here, unless some of the external links are useful in Architecture of Azerbaijan or Nakhchivan. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:24, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep. Nakhchivan architectural school mentioned in Encyclopedia Iranica:  Grand  master  08:58, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * What "architectural school" is that? Two structures designed by the same person. The term "school of architecture" means a definable architectural style that is influential by being widespread throughout a specific time-period or location and which is created by multiple architects or master builders. Meowy  12:00, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * In Azerbaijan, each large region has a different architectural style. Nakhichevan and Karabakh are closer to each other, but are still quite distinct. Shirvan and Sheki are completely different. If you look at mosques and traditional houses built in Shirvan and Nakhichevan, you will immediately notice the difference. And Iranica does not say that Nakhchivan school is represented by two buildings only. They are the most notable, but there are many more. Grand  master  12:07, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with Meowy that Nakhchivan is not an architectural school. Ajami Nakhchivani is an architect who already has his own article, and anything of important is this article appears to already be in his article. NJ Wine (talk) 12:58, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * And the term "architectural school" does not refer to minor local or regional variations in building types due to, say, climate or building materials - so it can't be applied to everything and anything. Just because place A looks different from place B, doesn't mean we can start to use terms like "Architectural school of A" or "Architectural school of B". And traditional architecture is almost never defined as an "architectural school" because it is rarely the product of architects or master builders. Meowy 13:08, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Ajami was the founder of this school, but he was not the only representative of it. The article needs further development and expansion, to include more examples of the local architecture. And the Nakhichevani school was clearly the product of master builders, Ajami being the best, but not the only example. The fact that the school is mentioned by Iranica makes it notable enough. Grand  master  07:27, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:OR and WP:SOAP. This is a part of nationalistic propaganda, started in Azerbaijan and criticized by scholars like Victor Schnirelmann, Philip L. Kohl and Clare P. Fawcett. For example, Akhundov's "seemingly innocuous, abstract archaeological paper was a deliberate political provocation: all the crosses on today’s territory of Azerbaijan, including significantly Nagorno-Karabagh and Nakhichevan, were defined as Albanian, a people who in turn were seen as the direct ancestors of today’s Azeris".(Philip L. Kohl, Clare P. Fawcett, Nationalism, politics, and the practice of archaeology. — Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1995. — P. 154. — ISBN 0521558395) Gazifikator (talk) 03:46, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 21:11, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 21:11, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * What does that to have do with Muslim architecture in Nakhichevan? Grand  master  07:19, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, Grandmaster is right, it is off-topic for the discussion here. I understand the reasoning behind Gazifikator's worry: some of the article's content could be seen to have propaganda purposes. (For example, the article is template linked to "Azerbaijani architecture" and mentions Tabriz using "the territory of Iranian Azerbaijan" wording, implying that there too are examples of "Azerbaijani architecture" and that Tabriz is Azerbaijani territory. The creation of a supposed "architectural school of Nakhchivan" could have the aim of "Azerifying" what are actually Iranian architectural forms and traditions). But that is a content issue. My deletion proposal is based on the fact that the subject of the article does not exist. Meowy 14:26, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:OR and WP:SOAP. Sprutt (talk) 04:52, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per Meowy. I think the idea of an architectural school denotes more than mere similarities between certain structures. I don't think it would be too inappropriate if I bring the example in Armenian architecture of the existence of the "Ani school" and "Syunik school" during the medieval period, when certain designs and patterns could be discerned in structures found in their respective regions.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:00, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep There are many sourses where Nakhchivan architectural school is mentioned:
 * Encyclopedia Iranica: :

"AJAMĪ B. ABŪ BAKR, 6th/12th century architect under the Eldigüzid atabegs, founder of the Nakhchevan architectural school."
 * Great Soviet Encyclopedia. :

"Ослабление (9—10 вв.) Арабского халифата обусловило возникновение множества небольших государств, в городах которых (Барда, Шемаха, Байлакан, Ганджа, Нахичевань и др.) складывались локальные художественные и архитектурные школы. Важнейшие из них — нахичеванская, ширвано-апшеронская, позднее тебризская. Памятники нахичеванской школы поражают великолепием керамического «одеяния» сооружений, первоначально одноцветного, а впоследствии многоцветного."
 * К. М. Мамед-заде. Строительное искусство Азербайджана, Баку, 1983:

"Продолжение двух архитектурных направлений — нахичеванского и ширваноапшеронского, является еще одним из важных доказательств о сохранении и развитии традиций азербайджанской архитектуры, созданной еще в домонгольский период. (Page 23)"

"Рядом с мавзолеем сохранились руины неизвестного сооружения и полуразрушенный цилиндрический минарет, сложенный из обожженного квадратного кирпича. Сохранившаяся часть минарета позволяет еще раз проследить влияние нахичеванской архитектурной школы. (Page 42)"

"Естественно, что одним из главных вопросов при изучении бузханы г. Нахичевани является вопрос о его датировке. Высокий уровень архитектурного решения, по нашему мнению, указывает, что памятник был возведен в период, когда традиции нахичеванской архитектурной школы находились еще в расцвете. На данной стадии изучения мы склонны отнести сооружение бузханы в Нахичевани к началу XIV в.; т. е. к периоду, когда мастера нахичеванской архитектурной школы прославились далеко за пределами своего родного города.(Page 44)"


 * Jonathan Bloom, Sheila Blair. The Grove encyclopedia of Islamic art and architecture, Volume 2. 2009. Page 45. Nakhchyvan:

"A local school of architecture, characterized by the use of engaged columns and glazed brick, developed for commemorative and religious buildings in the 12th century under Ajami ibn Abu Bakr, who designed the octagonal mausoleum of Mu'mina Khatun."

As you see there is no any original research. And Nakhchivan architectural school formed specific style of architecture. --Interfase (talk) 22:39, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Someone does not know their subject - there are no engaged columns in the Momine Hatun tomb! A "local school of architecture" [in Nakhchivan] is not the same as "Architectural school of Nakhchivan". An "Architectural school" requires a sequence of buildings that have been created over time by multiple architects or masons (perhaps starting with one singular structure that has exerted stylistic or constructional influence) and all which have certain distinguising features in common, features which also make them distinctive in some way. Meowy 21:16, 14 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep Nakhchivan school is mentioned in encyclopedia Iranica, which means that the subject of the article exists and is notable.Ladytimide (talk) 09:11, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no notability, and the article's content simply duplicates the content already on two Wikipedia articles: Ajami Nakhchivani and Momine Khatun Mausoleum, (and also, to a lesser extent, Nakhchivan (city)). Meowy 21:33, 14 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep Uccept the Grove reference as sufficient to warrant the article. Perhaps there are only two buildings, but that is still enough to define a style, and I think we have to go by the way the term is usef in the most reliable encyclopedic sources. The more extensive coverage in the GSE and EI confirm this .  DGG ( talk ) 06:04, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.