Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Armenian Evangelical Peter and Elizabeth Torosian School


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.  bibliomaniac 1  5  03:22, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Armenian Evangelical Peter and Elizabeth Torosian School

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This article should be deleted because it does not meet any of Wikipedia's criteria for notability. --2604:2000:E010:1100:41F:9F06:5896:638 (talk) 20:06, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Nomination on behalf of IP Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 23:45, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 23:45, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 23:45, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lebanon-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 23:45, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Popular culture-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 23:48, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. <i style="font-family:'Rock salt','Comic Sans MS'; color: Green;">Tyw7</i> (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 23:48, 20 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment - articles don't have to meet notability, the subject of the article does. John from Idegon (talk) 12:13, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The topic of this article does not meet WP notability standards. As a result, the article should be deleted. - Nominator. 2604:2000:E010:1100:1069:7A36:7E6:7A70 (talk) 16:51, 23 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep. --Doncram (talk) 05:13, 30 March 2020 (UTC) (re-stating original "Keep" !vote as I notice wp:AFDSTATS misinterpreted my position, trying to get it to work now. --Doncram)
 * Or maybe this should be "Speedy Keep", on simple standard grounds that there is no editor with a Wikipedia name and reputation nominating this. I object, as I have before, to persons like User:Tyw7 facilitating this.  It hurts Wikipedia because this wastes other editors' time.  And, also, the nomination as stated was invalid.  I don't think I or anyone else should be forced to try to educate a non-registered editor. --Doncram (talk) 22:11, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * And "Keep" also because of sources available, see below. It would be also be okay by me for this to be kept but moved and expanded to cover other related schools, per below. --Doncram (talk) 02:23, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete The school doesn't have third-party sources. As per WP:GNG, articles should have third-party sources. --<i style="font-family:'Rock salt','Comic Sans MS'; color: Green;">Tyw7</i> (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 23:08, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * User:Tyw7, thanks I guess for taking a position, almost as if you would make the nomination yourself, and be responsible for that. But, to be clear, did you perform wp:BEFORE and seriously look for sources (and explain how you looked), or is your comment merely observing something about the the current state of the article.  Which as you know does NOT suffice as a reason for deletion. Would you yourself have nominated this article for deletion? --Doncram (talk) 06:10, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I did a WP:BEFORE. There is no hits on Google or Google News.  Most of the Google entries are first-party sources or Wiki clones.
 * https://www.revolvy.com/page/Armenian-Evangelical-Peter-and-Elizabeth-Torosian-School Wiki Clone
 * https://evangelicalschools.org/portfolio/armenian-evangelical-peter-elizabeth-torosian-school/ first party source
 * https://www.facebook.com/pages/Armenian-Evangelical-Peter-and-Elizabeth-Torosian-Junior-School/494599023980807 Facebook, first party
 * http://imyerevan.com/en/navigator/view/7723 not first party but not significant coverage
 * https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/2199309 Wiki clone


 * Need I say more? I may have nominated the article if I had come across it. Schools isn't an area I tend to visit, much less one in Lebanon.  There is no notability guideline for schools so I am relying on the general guidelines --<i style="font-family:'Rock salt','Comic Sans MS'; color: Green;">Tyw7</i> (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 11:53, 26 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment For further searching purposes: The school seems to be called by a few different names, including "Հայ Աւետարանական Փիթր և Էլիզապէթ Թորոսեան Վարժարան" in Armenian, "Armenian Evangelical P. & E. Torosian School", and possibly "Armenian Evangelical Torosian School". The ending of the name also sometimes seems to change between "Intermediate", "Middle", or "Junior" School (sometimes even "college" because of a translation error). There might be additional Armenian sources out there, but since I don't speak Armenian, I'm not sure to what extent.
 * Either way, here are the sources I think I found about the school (not all are significant, but there are a lot, so I thought it'd be helpful to share):


 * Article About Their Lebanese Cultural Day (in Armenian)
 * Google Books hits for Հայ Աւետարանական Թորոսեան Վարժարան (Armenian Evangelical Torosian School) The first 4 hits seem to mention the school, but hard to tell to what extent with Snippet view and Google translate
 * Obituary about Elizabeth Torosian (founder) - Mention
 * Passing mentions in Armenian:
 * Mention in list: Page 92
 * Don't Seem Independent:
 * Educational Council of the UAECNE (Union of the Armenian Evangelical Churches in the Near East): Bio
 * Armenian Evangelical Church News Blog (Chanitz): Bio &
 * Association of Evangelical Schools in Lebanon: Profile
 * Armenian Missionary Association of America:
 * Many mentions seem to be listed with other Lebanon Armenian Evangelical schools, so if this is deleted, I think making an article about all of these schools together might be worthwhile. - Whisperjanes (talk) 20:03, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Whisperjanes! Well, it would be mean and punitive and otherwise an unnecessarily negative use of Wikipedia tools and procedures (the kind of stuff that drives away well-meaning contributors), if this article were to be deleted only for its coverage to be recreated as a list of Lebanon Armenian Evangelical schools, which indeed does seem obviously notable.  It would be fine by me for this to be "Kept" but moved and expanded.  That is a decent wp:ATD alternative to deletion, which we are obligated to look for, and since it is a good available option then there is no way this should be deleted outright.  However, it appears that sufficient sourcing exists, so simply "Keep" is also okay. --Doncram (talk) 02:23, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

*Delete As per WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES, individual schools are not inherently notable. Notability for this school is not supported by independent sources. Edit 29/3: Striking out own vote. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 07:05, 28 March 2020 (UTC) <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * First, use of "SCHOOLOUTCOMES" as an arguement at AfD was specifically deprecated at the RfC others have referenced in arguments above. It doesn't say what they are arguing, but it clearly says you can't use SCHOOLOUTCOMES as an arguement. Second, that essay isn't any sort of notability guideline; rather, as its name implies, it's a summary of historic results. Third, it's very hard to figure how you can get an arguement to delete this from it. It has historically been cited as either a reason to keep or to redirect. John from Idegon (talk) 00:04, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  19:33, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per Doncram's arguements, also I would like to know more information about the nominator, such as if he or she has a username on WP. In other words, what assurance do I have this is not some sort of tit-for-tat sort of thing? A username and an established account with a history would potentially also help me determine the likelihood this is based on inter-ethnic feuding.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 23:44, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * , how about the lack of sources on the web?There are only 1 or 2 independent third-party sources. Certainly does not pass WP:GNG. --<i style="font-family:'Rock salt','Comic Sans MS'; color: Green;">Tyw7</i> (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 00:10, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. <i style="font-family:'Rock salt','Comic Sans MS'; color: Green;">Tyw7</i> (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 00:09, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bible-related deletion discussions. <i style="font-family:'Rock salt','Comic Sans MS'; color: Green;">Tyw7</i> (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 00:09, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. <i style="font-family:'Rock salt','Comic Sans MS'; color: Green;">Tyw7</i> (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 00:09, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Weak keep -- The usual outcome for schools below secondary (High School) level is to merge or redirect to a wider article. My guess is that the highest level of this school would be classified elsewhere as a middle school, which we would not normally keep, but I do not see any very obvious merge target.  Armenian here refers to an ethnicity, one of a number of such found dispersed within the area of the former Ottoman Empire.  This is thus not about expatriates from the present Armenia (once Russian Armenia).  If there is an article on the Armenian community of Lebanon, we might redirect to a list of schools in that.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:11, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <b style="color: #307D7E;">Phantom</b><b style="color: #55CAFA;">Steve</b>/ talk ¦ contribs \ 10:33, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: in the bigger scheme of things: By analogy to what is done for middle school articles in the U.S., this article about an Armenian school in Lebanon should definitely not be deleted;  at most it should be merged/redirected to the corresponding "school district" article, leaving a redirect behind.  In general school district articles are rock-solid notable, being governmental-type taxing entities and being central to community fabric, sites of events, etc.  The general topic here area is the system of Armenian schools, of the world-wide Armenian community resulting from diaspora, which must play an important role in preserving language/tradition/communities, etc., and is loosely like a big school district.  This reminds me of a past AFD about a Basque school in Idaho which, though small and at kindergarten and maybe first grade levels alone, was itself probably the sole example of Basque language schooling outside of the Basque country.  So the AFD was in effect about the world-wide Basque diaspora schooling system, and the issue is important, and coverage about such exists of course, and the AFD was closed "Keep" of course.  The Armenian school system, broadly, has coverage, and has funding sources including the generosity of wealthy Armenians in the U.S. (as for this school, and who may or may not be individually notable).
 * There is list-article List of Armenian schools which lists such schools organized by primary vs. middle vs. high vs. college levels, and by country within level, which links to this school. And there is Template:Armenian schools outside of Armenia which is organized by country, which also links to this school. Would it advance Wikipedia to merge this article (and perhaps others similar articles) into tables in the List of Armenian schools article?  Hmm, if there were an editor or group of editors who did want to develop more central treatment, and who decided that mergers were appropriate in their process of development, then sure, I would say go ahead, and that would be done as a matter of bold editing and/or formal merger proposals and/or perhaps an RFC.  But I don't think we have any editors here wanting to positively develop in this topic area.  I am perhaps over-committed, myself, in following up on list-articles covering churches in England (stemming from several AFDs about churches in just Leicester), and I myself can't take on a big project here.  So I think it's best to leave it as it is.  Just note that merging as part of a positive development campaign is an idea, sure.  Provide a link to this discuss from its Talk page, and let this be. --Doncram (talk) 21:36, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * So merge/redirected is overwhelmingly likely to be the outcome for a US middle school. But you're not suggesting a merge target or a redirect target. You're saying this stands on its own. I just don't see that. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.