Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arnold Gjergjaj (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.  Sandstein  08:58, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Arnold Gjergjaj
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Non-notable boxer that fails both WP:NBOX and WP:GNG. The second AfD finished with a Delete 1.5 months ago and nothing has changed since then to meet either criteria. The Db:repost was declined because the article was substantially different but ... well I don't think it should have been - hence the third AfD.Peter Rehse (talk) 19:59, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse (talk) 19:59, 1 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep. I can see the arguement for deletion of the page but also for keeping it. Mark De Mori at one point was ranked 10th by the WBA and therefore qualified for a page. However, Gjergjaj has a better record, is ranked a lot higher overall in the world than De Mori ever was and is better fighter overall. If you're going to delete Gjergjaj for being non-notable then De Mori should also be deleted. De Mori is only notable because he fought David Haye, and therefore so is Gjergjaj. Lorenzo9378 (talk) 07:57, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. Despite the nominator stating that he fails GNG (based on what?), Gjergjaj has received enough coverage to satisfy that guideline, and not all relates to the fight with David Haye (e.g., , ). He's ranked at no. 29 in the world by Boxrec, 35 by the WBC, and if he beats Haye in May (however unlikely that may seem) he's going to be ranked highly enough by two of the major sanctioning bodies to satisfy NBOX. He was ranked high enough in Europe to be named as a European title challenger although the fight didn't happen.  --Michig (talk) 09:18, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment The previous two comments contain spurious arguments. Claiming he deserves a page because he's better than a fighter who has a page is both subjective and falls under WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.  Claiming he'll be highly ranked if he defeats Haye (who is not ranked in the top 10 by several organizations) is not necessarily true and also falls under WP:CRYSTALBALL. Papaursa (talk) 01:40, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Switzerland-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:04, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:04, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete In the six weeks since this article was last deleted he has done nothing to enhance his notability (since his last fight was in 2015). Some routine sports coverage about his upcoming fight with Haye is not enough to meet WP:GNG and he doesn't meet WP:NBOX.  My comment above deals with the keep arguments that have been made.  He doesn't seem any more notable now than in the previous two discussions (which were both in the past 6 months). Papaursa (talk) 01:40, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Disagree with the above, he is far more notable now simply due to the fact he is fighting Haye and this article is a big improvement on any of the previous ones about him. Also, he is the only heavyweight inside the Boxrec top 30 without a page, and it is true that Mark De Mori was ranked just inside the Boxrec top 100 before he fought Haye. Gjerjaj would have certainly had a page had his European title fight happened (its now Chisora vs Pulev). De Mori has a page and he is no more notable than Gjergjaj, despite his very questionable 10th place ranking by the WBA at one point, he is lower than Gjergjaj everywhere else. 92.31.150.162 (talk) 07:56, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete I don't see anything that makes him more notable than he was before. Saying he'd have been notable if other things had happened doesn't make him notable. He's not notable just because he's fighting Haye (though the keep voters seem to believe that) because notability is not inherited. Still fails both GNG and NBOX.Mdtemp (talk) 15:22, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — UY Scuti Talk  19:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment Gjergjaj IS more notable now because he is fighting Haye though, there is no denying it. Also can't see how he fails GNG and delete voters still haven't explained why. Lorenzo9378 (talk) 09:47, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete – Disagree about him being more notable just because he's fighting a more notable name. If there was a title of significance on the line (European Union/EBU-EU at least), he'd automatically gain notability, but fighting Haye for nothing whatsoever means squat. Furthermore, he isn't yet ranked in the top ten by either of the big four or the EBU, and certainly won't be after losing to Haye. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:19, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep The articles in Neue Zürcher Zeitung and Blick (published by Ringier) provided by Michig demonstrate that Arnold Gjergjaj passes Notability. Cunard (talk) 05:47, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I would say the German articles fall under routine sports coverage since they fall under the category of "here's what happened in last night's fight". In other words, more play-by-play than significant coverage.  I could find the same kind of coverage for thousands of fights of non-notable boxers. Papaursa (talk) 13:11, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Hopefully, the next week can be spent discussing sources, which is really what notability is about on wikipedia. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:32, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 23:32, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I disagree that the articles fall under routine sports coverage. For example, here is the Google Translate of the Neue Zürcher Zeitung article. Here are the first three paragraphs: "His trainer and manager Angelo Gallina baptized him 'The Cobra' because it waits before and then suddenly attacks. Arnold 'The Cobra' Gjergjaj - sounds good and has an intimidating effect, you want to be of a professional boxer in the heavyweight division. But the native of Kosovars from Pratteln liked this artist name, then nearly seven years ago, did not accept as correct. It is not devoid of humor, as Gjergjaj explained this refusal. 197 centimeters and 109.5 kg make the 'Turnbänkli' appear very small in the basement of Boxklubs Basel under him, his hands big as spades, carry the force of 550 kilograms to be. And this man says with a wink: 'I'm still myself fear cobras.' Gallina called his protege as 'sympathetic and playful'. Initially times it was for him a 'Baby Cobra'. Back when they together spanned in 2008, was Gjergjaj twofold Swiss amateur heavyweight, and Gallina guessed that would be possible more." The article provides even more detailed biographical background about him: "Meanwhile, the cobra is almost fully grown. Another amateur title was added, then was Gjergjaj professional, the most successful heavyweights that Switzerland has ever known. Last October flicked his left jab in the 9th round briefly lights when Bosnian Adnan Redzovic from. It was his 26th victory in 26 fight as a professional, the 20 by knock-out. Then he was allowed to put the belt as European champion of non-EU countries over the shoulder - it is not a particularly serious and coveted. Had he not won Yves Studer also at middleweight, you know this country hardly of its existence. 'Many have taken this title and our work to ridicule,' says Gallina, 'it accused us of having no proper opponents. But that's the reality. 'Boxing costs. The stronger the opponent, the more expensive the fee, the more complex and financially burdensome preparing with additional personnel. Critics Despite says Gallina: 'Our way is the only portable.' The giant Gjergjaj had in small steps the international ranking climb, first against building opponents, then, as in the last 14 fights against boxers with a positive balance. 2011 and 2012 yielded Gjergjaj from a total of 12 fights. Point by point, he has worked up in the current 50th place." This is not merely "here's what happened in last night's fight". Instead, this discusses Gjergjaj's history as a boxer. Cunard (talk) 05:05, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I was looking at the German sources (Tages Woche and Blick) in the article since you didn't provide a link to the article you mentioned. Your translation left out the beginning part where it is clear it's a local interview with his manager before that night's fight in Basel and it talks about the local boy who's been rising up the rankings to 50th and will be fighting before a home crowd tonight.  That seems more promotional and typical sports reporting than you implied.  Do you have some significant coverage that isn't from Basel media or about the Haye fight? Papaursa (talk) 00:24, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * The article I mentioned was linked by Michig. Neue Zürcher Zeitung is the Swiss newspaper of record, so I think that substantial coverage of Arnold Gjergjaj in it is a strong indicator of notability. I did not find a similar level of depth about the subject from the Haye fight. Cunard (talk) 06:05, 18 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment I looked for sources and found an incredible amount of articles just about the upcoming Haye match. This might be notability for one event, however. Many of the articles stated that Arnold is an unknown. I'd suggest just postponing until the match but it's over a month away so I guess we have to decide the notability as is. --Mr. Magoo (talk) 05:01, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete as this is still questionable for any available essential improvements, Draft at best if needed for now. SwisterTwister   talk  22:24, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * How is this "still questionable for any available essential improvements"? The Wikipedia article is sourced to several reliable sources and is neutrally written. Cunard (talk) 07:25, 24 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete the above mentioned comprehensive coverage in one or (maybe) two articles just doesn't meet WP:GNG, I'm sorry. The guidelines call for 3-5 independent and reliable sources with comprehensive coverage of the subject - I just don't see it. Chrisw80 (talk) 06:11, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Notability says, "There is no fixed number of sources required since sources vary in quality and depth of coverage, but multiple sources are generally expected." I've listed multiple sources below. Cunard (talk) 07:25, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Above, I posted a quote from a 2015 article from Neue Zürcher Zeitung that provides substantial biographical coverage about the subject. Here are two more sources from 2015:   The Google Translate of the article notes: "Arnold 'The Cobra' Gjergjaj slaves there for the defense of his European champion title on June 6, 2015. The best Swiss heavyweight boxer is 1.97 meters and 110 kilograms already a colossal appearance, but his top secret Scandinavian training partner with the Vikings Bart and the tattooed arms surmounted him again by a few centimeters. ... On the whitewashed wall next to the ring, an image of Vladimir Klitschko hangs. Even with the Ukrainian world number 1 Arnold Gjergjaj has already measured in sparring. For the 30-year-old Swiss with Albanian roots wants to reach the top. ...  The European champion belt, which Arnold Gergjaj has taken on 4 October 2014 in Basel before 2000 spectators against Bosnian Adnan Redzovic is awarded by the European Boxing Union (EBU), one of the oldest organizations in the world. However, the Swiss holding not the top EBU title, but those in the category EBU-EE - he is European champion of non-EU countries. So it's not the most important belt, but the first of a Swiss heavyweight boxer ever. And that Arnold Gjergjaj is on its way to the global peak, can be the cross-association world rankings BoxRec refer."  The Google Translate of the article notes: "It was an evening of firsts: the first time a battle of Arnold 'The Cobra' Gjergjaj was broadcast live on Kosovar television. For the first time the professional boxer from Pratteln had to defend his European title (EBU-EE). For the first time in his career Gjergjaj went down. Denis Bakhtov, called 'Darth Vader', was without a doubt the toughest opponent for the cobra. In two ways. On the one hand he demands Gjergjaj on Saturday night in the St. Jakobshalle, as this was never demanded. No matter how hard he hits, the Russians put the matches away seemingly easy. A counterattack? Bakhtov can not stop them. A right hook? Bakhtov oscillates slightly with your upper body to the left." The article goes beyond routine discussion of a sporting event by analyzing Gjergjaj's fighting techniques: "Although the decision in the end turned out clearly, all three judges saw in Gjergjaj the winner, could arise during the fight in the meantime, another impression. The early rounds were at least balanced, Bakhtov of active boxers. While Gjergjaj used his size advantage and kept his distance, Bakhtov knew only one direction: forward. So the prattler saw something too often pushed into a corner, where he tried to sit out the richly varied punch combinations of Russians in double coverage. Tactically and stylistically hardly two more different fighters could stand against. Gjergjaj fought cautiously, mostly over let the smaller Boxer the ring center and practiced in running work. Although his art was clean, but based mainly on a strike, the jab. Bakhtov contrast was taking risks, examined the Infight and dodged the few strokes of the cobra with its oscillating Waist sent out. His quick combinations always found their destination, sometimes it was the body, even the head." Here are four sources about the 2016 Hayes fight that provide significant coverage about the subject:<ol> <li> The Google Translate of the article notes: "Arnold Gjergjaj stands before the most important fight of his career. The currently best Swiss professional boxer meets on May 21 in London on the Englishman David Haye. For the 31-year-old, 197 cm large Gjergjaj it is the biggest fight of his career. The as a professional unbeaten pugilist from Pratteln with Kosovar roots was far against anyone yet boxer on the format of 'Heumachers', although Gjergjaj had already won the title of 'European Champion of non-EU countries'. ... For Gjergjajs coach and manager Angelo Gallina is not appropriate 'fear, but respect' for Haye. Some researchers drowned Gjergjaj himself: 'This fight in a magnificent setting is a huge motivation for me, a great world to show my skills My goal is clear. I want to stay unbeaten and with all due respect to David Haye:. His time is up.' The possibility that Haye underestimated his upcoming opponent is available. At least this is the case with many British boxing fans. In many blog posts after the fight announcement Gjergjaj is 'unknown' and considered despite his flawless fight record as 'easy prey' for Haye, 'perhaps he will be even more overtaxed than De Mori' conjecture several British Boxkenner."</li> <li> The Google Translate of the article notes: "Understandable. Today will be announced later in the day, what is clear is actually for days and is in social media as safe: Arnold Gjergjaj to deny the first big fight of his career. Against none other than the British David Haye. Of course there is little time for anything else at Angelo Gallina. Whether he was at the time of the message on the way to London to be at the press conference to local media Red and response to fight his protege against Haye today - this question remains open. ... Gjergjaj is currently classified in the BoxRec ranking ranked 29th To get further forward, he needs a victory against a large - like Haye is undoubtedly one. Only so Gallina and Gjergjaj can reach their ambitious goal of a world title fight. Siegt Gjergjaj in a possible duel against Haye, he would make a huge step towards his dream. In a defeat that would probably burst prematurely. 29 fights, 25 knock-outs This a fight against Haye carries the risk of losing, a fact due to the impressive statistics of the British. In his 29 fights won this 27 times, including 25 in the preliminary round. An impressive record that is certainly the 31-year Gjergjaj known. What's more, it would be the first appearance of Pratt moth before such a backdrop that the fight, the 'Haye-Day' will be held in the O2 Arena in London before 20,000 spectators. This would be a completely new stage for Arnold Gjergjaj. A fight on a completely new level in his career."</li> <li> The article notes: "Arnold Gjergjaj stands before the most important fight of his career. The currently best Swiss professional boxer meets on May 21 in London on the Englishman David Haye (35). The duel was made official at a news conference in London. For the 31-year Gjergjaj it is the biggest fight of his career. The as a professional unbeaten pugilist from Pratteln with Kosovar roots was far against anyone yet boxer on the format of 'Heumachers', although Gjergjaj already won the title of 'European Champion of non-EU countries'. ... For the rapidly beating Haye (27: 2 victory prematurely, 25) is Gjergjaj (29: 0, 21) be the last hurdle on the way to an IBF world title fight."</li> <li> The article notes: "Haye, whose forthcoming fight against Gjergjaj is expected to be shown on free-to-air television, made his comeback at a sold-out 02 Arena in January with three million viewers watching on the channel Dave when he defeated Australian Mark de Mori in 131 seconds. He faces an opponent in Gjergjaj who has won all 29 career fights. Since fleeing Kosovo as a war refugee, Gjergjaj has been based in Switzerland, where the 31-year-old heavyweight is a resident."</li> </ol>Cunard (talk) 07:25, 24 April 2016 (UTC) </li></ul>


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.