Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arnold zu Windisch-Graetz


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. I've assessed all the comments and !votes with interest. A quick review here would be beneficial. The keep !votes of Willthacheerleader18 and Hninthuzar have no reference or allusions to any notability guideline. That leaves one keep !vote of Epiphyllumlover, which I have considered despite not understanding what the editor means by "third party treatments". All delete !votes reference either the nom or relevant notability guidelines (the lack of, that is). It is reasonable under these circumstances to assess consensus as delete. Lourdes  07:39, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Arnold zu Windisch-Graetz

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Sources include a paid obituary, a caption of a photograph, passing mentions about the church, and passing mentions about his wife. No indication of notability from substantive independent sources, and notability is not inherited from being a minor member of a house of nobility. Reywas92Talk 20:52, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. I stress that we have tended to keep real royalty, not the articles of wannabes. This person didn't do anything notable; he was a run of the mill clergyman who inherited a title and money to support himself as clergyman of a minor synod. Bearian (talk) 21:13, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Interesting claim, seeing as the article says nothing about financial inheritances. Furthermore, WP:MILL is an essay and not policy. He had administrative roles in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, which makes him more than a run of the mill clergyman. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:27, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Austria-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 23:06, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 23:06, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 23:06, 22 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment: As the author of this article, I do not appreciate the fact that I was not notified by the nominator about this article's nomination for deletion. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:02, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:37, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Slovenian-related deletion discussions. Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:42, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Illinois-related deletion discussions. Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:44, 23 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Weak Delete/Redirect and maybe merge/summarize into Windisch-Graetz, where he is already listed. If someone finds more sources, then he might be notable.  For what it's worth, he was well-known enough to have a reporter-written obituary in the Chicago Tribune, though that would count as merely-local coverage.  I cleaned the citations up a bit. --Closeapple (talk) 18:24, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep (Article author) as subject was an administrative authority in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod and one of the longest-serving ministers in Chicago. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 15:19, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Adding an exaggeration to an article doesn't get it kept. You've added "one of the longest-serving ministers in Chicago" to the article twice.  The source https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2007-10-05-0710041012-story.html doesn't seem to say that.  It says 40 years, which is probably not any kind of record for a priest.  See discussion at Talk:Arnold zu Windisch-Graetz. --Closeapple (talk) 21:22, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * As I stated on the article's talk page, I did not add any exaggeration to the article in order to "keep it", and I don't appreciate being accused of doing so. The Reverend Prince Arnold zu Windisch-Graetz, one of Chicago's longest serving Pastors, passed away while serving in his 40th year is clearly stated here. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 22:38, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. There's a reliable sources problem since it's claimed by family/friends in a paid death notice, but it's there.  I don't know how I missed it.  (I keep getting confused because there's a paid notice, then a reporter-written obituary that has different things.) --Closeapple (talk) 22:57, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Of course, there are X number of pastors in Chicago, of which Y are younger and less experiences and Z are older and more experienced. He was older and was indeed among the longest-serving in the city at that time by a simple distribution. This is no claim to notability though. Reywas92Talk 04:18, 25 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment -- The question seems to be how important "Assistant Grand Chaplain of the Priory of the United States" of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod is. The denominational article indicates that the Missouri Synod is led by a President, whom we can perhaps treat as equivalent to an archbishop or bishop.  I suspect his position was the equivalent of a diocesan secretary, who would be NN.  Adding a few words, with a link to the synod, to the family article might be appropriate.  I am not clear if noble titles survived WWI in Yugoslavia: they were abolished in Austria.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:57, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't see any evidence that "Assistant Grand Chaplain" is anything notable. When I search for "Assistant Grand Chaplain" and "Priory of the United States" on the web, the only document where it appears is the source for Windisch-Graetz having been "Assistant Grand Chaplain of the Priory of the United States", OSMTH Resolution Nr 8 of 2008: "A Resolution Adopting the Recommendations of the Chaplain’s Meeting Hosted at Canterbury College on the University of Windsor Campus Which Will Be Known as the Windsor Statement". Even "Priory of the United States" does not normally appear alone anywhere else: It appears to be the "Grand Priory of the United States" or "Autonomous Grand Priory of the United States of America", which is the U.S. chapter of the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem (OSMTH), one of the multitude of "revived" Knights Templar organizations.  http://www.smotj.org/index.php/about-us/who-we-are says "The Order has both a Chaplain's Corps for ordained ministers and a Chirurgeon's Corps for medical professionals."  So I'm guessing that Grand Chaplain is the head of the Chaplain's Corps.  So, as far as I can tell, Windisch-Graetz was some assistant within the office that runs of the Chaplain's Corps of the U.S. chapter of the OSMTH.  The OSMTH allows any Christian in its order, and is not related to the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod; I don't see any source that says that he held this role "for" the LCMS, though it could be that's how they pick the assistants. --Closeapple (talk) 22:30, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * It very well may be that the position was with the knightly order and not the Lutheran denomination. Thank you for the clarification. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 22:52, 24 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep -- the knightly order business is not in itself notable, because he was never in power and doesn't appear to be a potential claim to any throne, but his life as a cleric and a historian in Chicago is.


 * What especially makes him unusual is that his church spoke German. At the time, there were only a handful of Lutheran churches in the US which spoke German. I think there is only one now. If you delete this article, you remove some of the collective history of immigration/assimilation. These details on historical movements are often only captured by biographical treatments. This must have been the tail end of the German diaspora. His congregation must have been made up of WWII refugees brought over after the war by LIRS or maybe POW camp members who never went home. If you leave the article, I would imagine some of his life or historian work along these lines might eventually be flushed out. In general, Wikipedia has very little material about the post WWII diaspora in the U.S.


 * He passes the notability test because he has multiple third-party treatments. Also, he was an immigrant who married a German consul. Was she east German or west German? This sort of thing is helpful for people tracing political relationships.


 * Of the sources listed, 1,2,3,4,5,6,8 and 9 are all third party. Typically the ministers deleted here for notability have no or nearly no third party references, only church references.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 20:10, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment. If you think this congregation is notable, then make an article for it and justify your assumptions. He is not. If you think his wife is notable for being a consul, make an article for her. He is not. If you want more content on the diaspora then expand German Americans or a subarticle, but this article is not linked in that. What makes you think these sources are "treatments"? These are passing mentions and there are not multiple substantive sources on him to establish notability:


 * So there is the one local obituary that is mainly the death notice plus a few quotations from his widow and people who knew him, as obituaries go. Perhaps these sources can contribute to content on the church or Germans in America but notability is not established for him. Reywas92Talk 06:07, 26 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete fails WP:GNG. Is not the subject of press (only mentioned in passing here and there).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:18, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep this person had held high-level appointed administrative post at Chicago as a one of the longest-serving ministers and Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. IMO, that's clearly meet GNG. Best Hninthuzar (talk) 03:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Unclear what this supposed "high-level appointed administrative post at Chicago" is. Please clarify what he was administering and where this position in its hierarchy is. The family-written death notice claimed he was one of the longest-serving in Chicago, but do you have a reliable source about this record within the synod? Plenty of people hold a job from right out of college to when they die but that doesn't make them notable nor relate to the GNG. Reywas92Talk 07:48, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Sry, i have think he was cabinet minister of the city, but now i know he is not. Hninthuzar (talk) 09:41, 1 March 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.