Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arthur's Tavern


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep per WP:GNG. (non-admin closure)  Willsome 4 29  (say hey or see my edits!) 20:18, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Arthur's Tavern

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Not enough sources exist to write an article of substance. Difficult to find sources which are not promotional. Questionable notability. Vmavanti (talk) 18:40, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 18:46, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. North America1000 03:17, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. North America1000 03:17, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. North America1000 03:18, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete a non-notable tavern.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:22, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep - Putting aside the above serial hit and runner !vote, this is a jazz institution that is considered "legendary" and "historic" that even had Charlie Parker as a regular performer. Other coverage exists too. Oakshade (talk) 22:06, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.     <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li><li></li> <li></li> <li></li> </ol>

<ol> <li> The book notes: "They are the Grove Street Stompers, and they have a steady gig. They play every Monday night at Arthur's Tavern in the West Village. As the math reveals, to have played on more than 2,600 Mondays, they would have to have been playing for fifty years. Which they have. ... Arthur's is not the Café Carlyle, where Woody Allen plays on Monday nights. It is a dive, which can be charming as long as the lights are low. It has an old wooden bar with thirteen stools, a wall with ten tables and twenty chairs, and a path that leads to a stage that can't hold much more than six Stompers. ... Arthur's is said to have opened in 1937. No one seems to have any recollection of Arthur. The rusted neon sign outside says Arthur's Steak Chops. But in fifty years, Bill says, he's never seen a steak or a chop, though for a while he saw a popcorn machine. ... Whatever the tavern served, it was owned for decades by the Maisano family, members of which kept it into the eighties. Then Danny Bensusan, who had loved the place, bought the bar and its building. A couple of years earlier, he had founded the Blue Note jazz club."</li> <li> The article notes: "No better starting point than Arthur's Tavern (77 Grove Street, near Seventh Avenue, 242-9468). It's a small, boozy, smoky joint, a cluttered, elongated room with the piano on a raised platform at the back, and a mob of regulars (at least one of whom is called Dutch) perched at the bar in the front. Décor is sparse—this is the kind of place where Christmas hangings seem to stay up all year, and the chairs are almost as hard as the floor—but uptowners come here as well as oldtime Villagers and young folks in denim. The attraction is the three pianists: Al Bundy plays Tuesdays and Wednesdays; Mable Godwin, Thursday through Saturday; and Verna Swindell solos on Sundays and plays in between Ms. Godwin's sets. Monday, there's Dixieland jazz. Ms. Godwin, a quiet, assured woman who has been at Arthur's for twenty years and who was playing in Harlem clubs in the thirties, is the star. ..."</li> <li> The article notes: "Arthur's Tavern, 57 Grove St. The man with white hair and thick black spectacles has been an Arthur's regular since the late 1940s. 'No Cover/No Minimum' has little to do with his unfailing patronage; it is the music, played in a way and in a place that reminds him of his youth. Arthur's is a rare holdout from the Truman era — Greenwich Village unplugged. Although it is a jazz joint, you do not have to be a jazz buff to enjoy Arthur's. The music never overwhelms, even at the rickety counter that surrounds the musicians' podium at the back of the bar. The place is so unpretentious it never bothers to takes down its Christmas decorations."</li> <li> The article notes: "Manhattan's landscape can change in a flash, yet even near the busiest thoroughfares, a half-forgotten pocket exists where time stands still and only the escalating beer prices alert a patron to the approximate decade. Straddle a barstool inside the musty, West Village cocoon that is Arthur's Tavern and marvel. Balloons dangle from the ceiling, slowly deflating, their candy-shop hues faded with the years. The tobacco-brown wall paneling is dotted with ratty decorations that celebrate every occasion: Cupid silhouettes for Valentine's Day, fake cobwebs for Halloween. If there's a ghost of Greenwich Village past, it probably abides here, harmonizing with the creaking furniture. Dump that it is, Arthur's makes a great bet for jazz fans. Almost every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday for the past nine years, the pianist Eri Yamamoto has led her trio through a couple of early evening sets at the Grove Street bar. It's the sort of open-ended residency that seems rare these days, a holdover from the era when Charlie Parker would drop by and jam. Ms. Yamamoto's focused, sensitive touch and the easy flow of her rhythm section sometimes mark a brave stand against the chatter that fills the bar."</li> <li> The book notes: "Arthur's Tavern My most jaded friend has the hots for this place: a great place for Village denizens to drink gin in. The story behind it: In the late 1940s to mid-1950s Arthur's was home to many of bebop's rising stars; even Charlie 'Bird' Parker called this home. They feature jazz, blues, and Dixieland seven nights a week, always for free. They have been in biz for almost thirty-five years. Sundays and Mondays the music starts at 8 P.M.; the rest of the week it gets truly going at 7 P.M."</li> <li> The article notes: "Stepping into West Village stalwart Arthur's Tavern is like stepping back to a time when guys named Dizzy and Coltrane were blazing new trails. This tiny place is lit up in Christmas lights year-round, but the real shining is happening onstage. A small group plays every night, featuring everyone from hip newcomers on the latest keyboards to old stalwarts on their ancient trumpets. Get a seat near the entrance if you want to actually have a conversation, or if you want to be overwhelmed by the music, get right up in the guitarist's face at the bar surrounding the band to groove to the music."</li> <li> The article notes: "Arthur's Tavern They've got a quality open mike, a piano bar, literally, where the ever-wonderful Mabel Godwin does her thing on weekends and Al Bundy covers when she's not around. Much has been made of the antique Xmas decor, which was hung before God was born. The crowd is one that appreciates a good cry over Mable's blues."</li> <li> The book notes: "Arthur's Tavern—57 Grove St., Greenwich Village, Manhattan. (212) 675-6879. A classic jazz joint with a well-worn wooden bar and twinkling Christmas lights. Arthur's is housed in a building that dates to the early 1800s. Featuring jazz since the 1940s, the cozy and dark club has two house bands that attract jazz lovers nightly."</li> <li> The book notes: "Arthur's Tavern 57 Grove Street (off Seventh Avenue South) (212) 675-6879 www.arthurstavernnyc.com Since 1937, Arthur's Tavern has been serving up a variety of music for every taste: straight-ahead jazz, New Orleans-style jazz, real Chicago blues. On Monday night for more than thirty-five years, it's been home to the same Dixieland Jazz band. Stop by any time of night; there's always something going on. Never a cover of minimum."</li> <li> The book notes: "Arthur's Tavern On Grove Street since 1937, this is the longest continually run jazz club in the city."</li> <li> The book notes: "Pero hasta que llegara ese momento, el melancólico final de la noche —también para nosotros dos el tiempo se acababa, y no faltaba mucho para que tuviéramos que abandonar la habitación del hotel y la ciudad que nos había acogido como un santuario provisional para nuestra huida— aún nos quedaban varias horas por delante cuando por fin encontré la calle Grove y el modesto letrero luminoso de la Arthur's Tavern, brillando como la luz de una casa invitadora y aislada en lac noche de invierno. En Nueva York raramente hay correspondencia entre la temperatura de los lugares cerrados y la de los espeacios abiertos, y las diferencias climáticas artificiales son todavía más extremas que las de la naturaleza: si hace un calor irrespirable y húmedo en la calle nos transpasará el frío polar del aire acondicionado al entrar en una tienda, en un autobús o en un restaurante, y si escapamos del viento helado empujando con urgencia la puerta de un edificio en menos de un segundo nos sofocará el calor de horno de la calefacción. Ingresamos del golpe, después de habernos extraviado en el frío de las calles a oscuraras, casi desiertas en la noche laboral del invierno, en la pulsación del calor y de la música, en el olor a tabaco, a cerveza agria, a madera y a serrín mojado de las tabernas irlandesas, en la penumbra rumorosa de voces, tintineos de vasos y cubitos de hielo, risas de bebedores. En las avenidas sombrías batidas por el viento no había casi nadie, sólo algunos mendigos y lunáticos errantes, pero en el interior de la Arthur's Tavern, forrado de madera oscura, adornado con recortes de periódicos viejos, con reseñas enmarcadas de New Yorker y del New York Times, con adornos navideños y colgaduras de tréboles de San Patricio y de banderitas del Cuatro de Julio que llevan muchos años acumulando polvo y mugre, las camereras circulaban atareadamente entre las mesas y la barra llevando en alto bandejas con jarras de cerveza rubia, gin tonics y whiskies, y en el aire denseo de humo de tabaco la música sonaba por encima de un bajo continuo de conversaciones murmuradas." From Google Translate: "But until that moment came, the melancholic end of the night - for both of us, time was running out, and it wasn't long before we had to leave the hotel room and the city that had welcomed us as a temporary sanctuary for our escape. - We still had several hours ahead when I finally found Grove Street and the modest Arthur's Tavern light sign, glowing like the light of a secluded and inviting house on a winter night. In New York there is rarely a correspondence between the temperature of closed places and that of open spaces, and the artificial climatic differences are even more extreme than those of nature: if it is an unbreathable and humid heat in the street, the polar cold will pass us from the air conditioning when entering a store, a bus or a restaurant, and if we escape from the freezing wind by urgently pushing the door of a building in less than a second we will suffocate the heat of the furnace of the heating. We entered at once, after having got lost in the cold of the dark streets, almost deserted in the winter working night, in the pulsation of the heat and of the music, in the smell of tobacco, sour beer, wood and sawdust. Wet from the Irish taverns, in the murmuring gloom of voices, clinking of glasses and ice cubes, laughter of drinkers. On the bleak windy avenues there was hardly anyone, just a few beggars and wandering lunatics, but inside the dark wood-lined Arthur's Tavern adorned with old newspaper clippings, with framed reviews of New Yorker ' 'and from the' 'New York Times, with Christmas decorations and hangings of Saint Patrick's shamrocks and Fourth of July flags that have accumulated dust and grime for many years, the waitresses circulated busy between the tables and the bar carrying high trays with mugs of blond beer, gin and tonic whiskeys, and in the thick smoke air the music played over a continuous bass of whispered conversations."</li>

There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Arthur's Tavern to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 09:55, 25 April 2020 (UTC)</li></ul> Vmavanti (talk) 17:02, 26 April 2020 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 03:05, 27 April 2020 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 23:12, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Editors, please refrain from language that compares other editors and contributors to killers, as in "serial hit and run". Death isn't being proposed here, merely the deletion of inert data on a computer screen. Let's save the melodramatic figurative language for poems and plays and try to be more literal, realistic, and practical on Wikipedia. Thanks. Your friend, Don Quixote. P.S. Some of us use colored syntax.
 * Nobody is claiming any editor is literally murdering anyone (see straw man). It is referring to the editor who has a history of dropping into AfD discussions and commenting without any regard to proper analysis or research of the topic and has a fundamental misunderstanding or willing disregard of our notability guidelines. Believe me, I'm not alone in this assessment. Oakshade (talk) 01:00, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not a straw man. Figurative language is suggestive and makes a point and impression. I advise people to avoid using it on Wikipedia because Wikipedia is a place where we are supposed to discuss facts. We ought to be literal more often than not. I know nothing about this person, just as I know nothing about everyone else on the internet, but to say "serial hit and run" about anyone is lazy, false usage that ought to avoided. We can do better, and we usually do. If one disagrees with a point, prove it, which others have apparently done. Let's rise above the name-calling. There's enough of that in the world already.
 * I won't repeat the stated facts about this editor, some of which has even been admitted by that editor. But I'll make it explicitly clear so you don't have any false impressions: To my knowledge, Johnpacklambert has never murdered anyone with their vehicle and driven from the scene without assisting the victim nor reporting the collision to authorities. Oakshade (talk) 21:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * You missed the point. All of them.


 * Keep. This is a BLP issue. --Doncram (talk) 00:15, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , would you clarify how this is a BLP issue? Cunard (talk) 09:09, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep Plenty of sources available. See, to start, the first page of Google Books and the sources listed above. I'm curious about what type of WP:BEFORE was performed that determined "Not enough sources exist to write an article of substance". This is not what AfD is for. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 02:12, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm curious about why accusations and insinuations of laziness immediately pop up whenever anyone stands against the Church of Indiscriminate Inclusion, Infinite Open-Endedness, and Passing Work Off to Anonymous Strangers on the Internet. There's an old saying that when you point the finger at someone else you have four fingers pointing back at yourself. I'm curious about whether people know how to use sources, despite apparently having one or more college degrees. I learned when I was thirteen in a lousy American public school. What's everyone else's excuse? According to the documentation, a passing mention DOES NOT qualify as a source. Common sense will tell you that. Why? Because there's not enough content to provide material for an article. If you have to hunt high and low for sources, there's a good chance the subject is NOT notable. Why? Because notable subjects have "significant coverage", according to documentation which few people read or understand or both.Vmavanti (talk) 15:07, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep and expand - "It has been located in a designated historic building for more than 60 years" - in a downtown NYC venue that a number of bands launched from.  Quality sources exist, many have already been mentioned above. Grmike (talk) 11:01, 28 April 2020 (UTC)grmike


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.