Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arthur Madsen


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. -- Cirt (talk) 17:20, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Arthur Madsen

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

No references to establish notability. Unclear claim to notability as well. Google news/archive doesn't bring back anything, but again, going by the text it's unclear why subject would be given significant coverage in reliable sources Omarcheeseboro (talk) 08:46, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Notability seems reasonably well established within the context of Madsen's Chief Translator position on the INGA-SHABA project, the USA's largest project in Africa during the 1970s and 80s. His contributions financially, through the Bank of Zaire, ensured employment of hundreds of Americans during the time frame in question. His verifiable technology transfer publications (Int'l Academy of African Business, etc.)are noteworthy and contribute to his significance. His connections to Bill Clinton's Cabinet, directly or indirectly, are also of more than passing interest.

True, the tone of this contribution could be improved, rendering it less mellifluous and more reportorial.

Deletion, after many unchallenged years on Wikipedia, seems a bit harsh. Rewording or elimination of some portions would seem more appropriate.

Omarcheeseboro's archives indicate willingness to work with articles such as this one. Perhaps through dialogue, this colorful biography can remain, in an improved form. Sources for this bio appear intact through cross-linking to specific, well-documented Wiki articles. — User:203.145.90.192 (talk • contribs) has made no other edits outside this topic.
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:54, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - Without coverage in any published Reliable Sources, this fails WP:V and WP:GNG. However i am willing to change my mind if such coverage can be found. --Sodabottle (talk) 03:57, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

There are apparently a number of internet and published sources utilizing and discussing his material on Algeria (Ben Bella, El Outaya, etc) and The Democratic Republic of the Congo (Zaire), plus the IAABD site. These locations are returned by Google and Google Beta, for example:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/31004989/The-El-Outaya-Salt-Refinery-Project

http://www.ephrem.org/dehai_archive/2001/jun01/0338.html

http://www.wikiwak.com/texis/wcolz/viewcache.html?q=sozacom+building&h=5317f312b02bedba8a3bc0a98bd47a31

http://www.pdf-tube.com/en/doc/El%20Outaya-1.html

Looking over WIKI's Reliable Source criteria, he fits into a scholarly category, though admittedly has published seriously on only two or three countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.145.92.225 (talk) 04:35, 16 May 2010 (UTC) — User:203.145.92.225 (talk • contribs) has made no other edits outside this topic.

In the presence of his apparently serious deletion suggestion, still under consideration in compliance with WIKI's due process rules, I'm left wondering why Omar (15 May) removed the justified "Harvard tag" (I've just replaced it) and added "Quincy, Mass". This minor change could point to his personal frustration with the actual content of the article, rather than to a legitimate desire to delete in accordance with WIKI policy.

(1) In support of the THIRD PARTY source condition, here's an article from a New Hampshire newspaper attesting to the Inga Shaba appointment and three other periods of corporate employment, plus degrees and so forth. More sources coming as the search continues.

http://membres.multimania.fr/transnational/News-cli.gif


 * You should try to find out the name and date of the paper, otherwise you may have difficulty convincing others it is a legitimate listing. It will also be hard to reference without that data. Nineteen Nightmares (talk) 23:56, 29 May 2010 (UTC)Nineteen Nightmares

(2) NPOV seems to be an issue primarily because of the "ebullient style" of the article -- but this objection was dealt with in previous discussions and resulted only in a lower rating for the article, not an overt suggestion for deletion. An aesthetic argument can be made in favor of this style since it makes reading more enjoyable and less tedious.

(3)Intra-textual references are scattered throughout the bio-article, mostly linking to well-established WIKI articles dealing with Electronic Defense Labs, Inga-Shaba, Young Socialist Alliance, Notre Dame University, and Andre Gide, for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.217.143.134 (talk) 02:18, 17 May 2010 (UTC) — User:124.217.143.134 (talk • contribs) has made no other edits outside this topic.

There is also WIKI's 'occasional exception' rule whereby the text of the article can be reworked slightly and the page retained based on its intrinsic interest and notability of accomplishments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.145.92.225 (talk) 13:32, 18 May 2010 (UTC) — User:203.145.92.225 (talk • contribs) has made no other edits outside this topic.

It's curious that this bio has been selected for deletion; it had been fairly recently upgraded from a START bio, considerably above a template and stub, to one of the GREEN levels, a B at least. As Omar points out in his initial flagging statement, there is really no reason that a CHIEF TRANSLATOR, TECHNICAL AUTHOR and CENTRAL BANK LIAISON SPECIALIST (responsible for disbursal of millions of dollars for American jobs) should necessarily be recognized by 'reliable sources' in the formal sense. WIKI is liberal enough, under the occasional exception rule, for example, to recognize some unsung heroes who are indeed notable and noteworthy. I recommend some (1) re-editing of the text, (2) perhaps some abridgment and (3) giving the contributors a chance to improve the overall article, as was the original intent when rating this article between a START and an "A' or "B". (SEE TALK PAGE)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.217.143.230 (talk) 02:41, 20 May 2010 (UTC)  — 124.217.143.230 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.  Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, JohnCD (talk) 21:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.

Comment - so far, we have the nomination, one delete !vote, and a large volume of comment in defence from four SPA IPs, all located in Hong Kong and probably the same person. Some more independent opinions are needed. JohnCD (talk) 21:38, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Hello Omar, Sodabottle, and John CD --> A photo is one of the primary 'Wiki-means' of identifying a person of historical notability and here is one of Madsen, Master of Ceremonies, taken on board the 'M/V Jack Langland' during a major christening event, attended by Ambassadors and Congolese officials, which was organized for this large self-propelling barge on the Congo River. In addition to the foregoing information, emanating from Hong Kong (you're right...but by TWO persons...a professor and a colleague of Madsen's), this should provide sufficient proof to at least maintain the article temporarily intact until some re-editing can be accomplished...but kindly remove the discouraging labels and tags at the top for a few months at least. Photo: http://membres.multimania.fr/transnational/langland.jpg Other African project photos are also available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.217.141.69 (talk) 09:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC) • — 124.217.141.69 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

"...but in practice not everything need actually be attributed" WP:V  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.145.92.226 (talk) 15:00, 29 May 2010 (UTC)  Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,   A rbitrarily 0    ( talk ) 17:34, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.

Please note: Several inaccuracies in Nineteen's assertions... Also: Sodabottle's vote is conditional. Indeed, verifiable third party sources have been identified...Omar's original flagging, emanating from someplace close to Langley, Virginia, seems dubiously motivated as well... Anyway, good wiki-fellows, do what you wish with this article which embodies considerable merit.
 * Delete - It appears the subject's major notable accomplishment is donating money to Africa in some way. It isn't entirely clear what his role entailed and is somewhat confusing to read. The rest reads like a resume, indicating his schooling and even his GPA. By this standard anyone who works overseas for the government and has some semblence of authority would be eligible to have an article. Nineteen Nightmares (talk) 23:53, 29 May 2010 (UTC)Nineteen Nightmares
 * In point of fact, Madsen was extracting money, hundreds of millions, from Africa for technical services rendered and creating hundreds of jobs for Americans with this Zairian money. In any event, Madsen probably wouldn't want his article on WIKI ... which seems to have some rather basic editorial support problems. Please remove this article forthwith.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.145.90.173 (talk) 05:33, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete - Anyone interested in researching anything about this fellow will probably see all there is to see on the [Inga–Shaba] page, which is more notable yet far shorter. Everything else on the page is little more than either personal vanity or unsourced research.  His main claim to fame is embedded deep within the article.  A Google search turns up nothing but this article.  The age of the article should not be a consideration in not deleting it. Jaqphule (talk) 19:20, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'm willing -- even as a former supporter of this article -- to accept Jaqphule's assessment which seems to encapsulate the essence of the problem. Google Beta may have produced more results than simply Google, but all of that is irrelevant due to the 'vanity issue' which, almost as a humorous taunt to Wiki, dominates the article's tone. You may delete the article. Perhaps the Inga-Shaba page can be strengthened somewhat in the near future.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.