Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Assassinations committed by Armenian nationalists


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the nomination was delete. Mailer Diablo 04:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Assassinations committed by Armenian nationalists
The article is unencyclopedic and has no precedent, involves original research and is poorly sourced. See talk page.--Eupator 18:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Hardly any of that information can be backed-up by a credible source. -- Clevelander 18:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Even if they could, placing people in such a list is simply original research, who should be there or excluded is simply the judgement of the creator of this article. Fad (ix) 19:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete I totally agree, going around fishing murderers from a particular ethnic group, all more unrelated one from the other, like the example of the 16 years old kid is unencyclopedic. First, many of those murders have nothing to do with nationalists, example, Behbud Han Jevanshir killing was an act of vengence. Also, giving such a precendent, any person can decide that any ethnic groups murderers can be classified and an encyclopedic article could be formed out of it. To have such a classification, such an encyclopedic position should exist in the first place. I do not go around and post the list of the thousands of Turkish nationalists who murdered Armenians during World War I to then form an article out of it. It is unencyclopedic. Fad (ix) 19:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment I would like to present my apologies to Gökhan (and to him only) for having drafted such unencyclopedic content. How could I forget (even for a moment) that the angelic Armenian mind and such ghastly acts like politically-motivated assassination could never be associated. I am sorry Gökhan! It was such bizarre points as, some of these murderous political organizations still being active in one way or the other, sometimes under the same name (we can partition the article according to the different organizations, by the way!), some of the assassins having monuments erected to their memory (such as in California, of all places!), an entire industry functioning around propaganda, for what was it again, oh yes! for "vengence", these people killing priests, mayors, diplomats, without mentioning simple folk, for "vengence", the list of victims reads like the United Nations, for "vengence", and during all that time, their country sinking more and more into the mud, no one investing there, except to keep the hate machine alive. And since a hungry chicken will think itself to be in a corn barn, as we say in Turkish, history is built and re-built again to suit present needs. Krikor Zohrab's books become best-sellers in Turkey, and there are Armenians who don't know who Elisha Tourian is (from what I could see from a peek in a chat-site). For a moment I had the impression that it seemed familiar and that there was a sickly pattern, which prompted me to start the draft. I thought a list would do good. I am sorry again! Cretanforever
 * Delete can probably never meet WP:V --Pboyd04 19:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and per Fad's comment. The list will be perpetually incomplete and is rather judgmental about who is included. —C.Fred (talk) 19:10, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete Should we now create an article for every two ethnic groups that have been assassinating one another?--MarshallBagramyan 19:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete Hakob 19:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete as WP:NOT for indiscriminate lists. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - random list pulled together for an agenda. John Smith&#39;s 22:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - if it is becoming disturbing. Should we also delete the list I was preparing in parallel? Armenian notables deported from the Ottoman capital in 1915. Or is that one considered as kosher? Cretanforever
 * Vote modified to Keep but Reshape as per below Cretanforever
 * That too would be unlikely to survive AFD. It cites no references, so it I assume it is your original research - WP:NOR. Notables is a vague term, making the list potentially indiscriminate - WP:NOT. As said, unreferenced - WP:V. But I might be wrong. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Absolutely, that other article is just like this one, pov ridden original research.--Eupator 15:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - Totally unencyclopedic. Besides the valid reasons raised above, this is forking, which is prohibited by NPOV rules. I could create a list of Turkish criminals and post it as an article, if these kinds of articles were to be allowed. Definite no-no for Wikipedia--TigranTheGreat 06:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete Totally unencyclopedic and not pro-Armenian --Gokhan 12:52, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment The list you made is inconsistent and incoherent and many of the assassinations range from the 1890s to the latter half of the 20th century. What purpose would that serve to a reader on Wikipedia? to show that Armenians have had a history of assassinating and killing diplomats? What does the Khojaly Massacre have to do with "Assassinations committed by Armenian nationalists"? Again, to establish the jurisprudence that Armenians have always had a knack for indiscriminately killing including that of civilians? I might as well create a "Turkish assassins" article that picks up on every single assassination of a foreign diplomat, citizen, innocent, civilian up to and including to the deeds of the Grey Wolves and Ali Agca.--MarshallBagramyan 16:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Go ahead! Do it! Assassinations committed by the Grey Wolves! (or Turkish nationalists) Some of which already have distinct articles here to which links can be established (Bahçelievler Massacre). Include those on foreign diplomats or other foreign nationals or in localities abroad. Including notable ones that have been attempted. You can put a "See also" link to mass-killings of civilians which have occurred in enclaves (or exclaves, regardless:) where they were known to be influent. Ranging from the 1890's. Including non-definite cases for which notable references have been made to them. (like Ahmet Özkan case in Chveneburi article where, despite that article's wording, their implication could not be fully established...although it is reasonably likely) I certainly won't put your list on deletion, but let you develop it. I like lists. Cretanforever
 * Here's some start-up material. It's in Turkish of course, but I can translate it for you and give more feedback. It seems that a core group of Grey Wolves who lived in Europe as exiles during the military rule in the 80's seriously planned to invade Costa Rica (which does not have an army) and establish a Turkish state there. Cretanforever


 * Being cynical or sarcastic isen't an argument at all. No one is telling you to not creat pages about certain individuals. Here the question revolve around the article which you have created. Assassinations committed by Armenian nationalists say it all, it is a list of names, and there is no way that from such a subject there could be an encyclopedic article. I don't appreciate your tone, words like 'angelic Armenian mind' evidence(and I hope not) an ulterior motive in creating such an article, which would justify its existance.


 * Furthermore, what is the relevancy of the monuments erected? The justifications you came up such as industry functioning around propaganda only further convince the community to request its deletion. Fad (ix) 18:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The entire point is that making such articles is pure folly. I wouldn't make such an article even if I wanted to because its unencylopedic to Wiki's standards not to mention spurous. --MarshallBagramyan 18:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete --Davo88 19:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment There is such a concept as ethnic terrorism - there is no question about the veracity of the data, although it is incomplete, many more names can be added. In case of so-called assassinations committed by Armenian nationalists it can be re-phrased as assassinations (inlc. attempted) by Armenian Secret Army of Liberation of Armenia (ASALA, on US State Dept list of terrorist organizations), or Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutsyun party), or Hnchak party, or otherwise "Armenian terrorism". If there can be Islamic terrorists, Irish, Basque or Kurdish terrorists ("nationalists"), Iranian or Syrian state sponsorship of terrorism -- i.e., all pointing to a specific nation or ethnicity -- why can't there be Armenian terrorism or "Assassinations committed by Armenian nationalists"? The latter is actually a less harsh wording. The page should undoubtedly be improved, perhaps rephrase its title -- but removing it completely? It obviously shows a certain pattern, and that pattern has been identified as such by several sources. Also, I've raised a similar question here - there is a page about a certain Lt. Ramil Safarov of Azerbaijani army. Whilst more famous than perhaps any other Azerbaijani Army Lt., at the same time there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of Azerbaijani and Armenian (as well as other) junior officers in any given army who kill, or get killed, committ atrocities or are victims of such. Thus, I raise the question, why should Ramil Safarov have a page in Wikipeda -- he is just one of the victims, who has killed himself and saw killings all around himself coming from a refugee family -- and not Armenian Army Lt-Colonel, much more senior in rank, Pargev Abrahamyan, who also used an axe, but to kill his wife, not enemy combatant? Everyday rapes and murders and other grave crimes occur in both Armenia and Azerbaijan - whilst unfortunate, still, why should they be written about in an encyclopedia? --AdilBaguirov 13:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It would help, if you read WP:NOT, which is a policy. I don't think I need to tell you what part is concerned. Fad (ix) 22:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment As I stated above, it would be fairly easy to put separate headings for ASALA, Dashnak and Hunchak actions within the article to make it look more like List of ETA attacks and Chronology of Provisional IRA actions, and I also agree that its main flaw is (and perhaps will always be) incompleteness. I object the WP:NOR relevance here though: Articles may not contain any previously unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new analysis or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas that serves to advance a position. All info here has been collected from previously published sources, to which I put direct links. There is no analysis or synthesis, it's a list of events. A killed (or attempted to kill) B at this place and at this date and in this manner. Discussions on phrasing and on deleting an article are distinct exercises. Cretanforever
 * You may create a list of ASALA attacks, I see no problem there.--Eupator 14:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Fad (ix) 22:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think they are worth copying in style, tone and nomenclature. However, it may be better to have an article for each of the ASALA/anything else you want to add. Chronology of PIRA actions does not include OIRA, RIRA or INLA ones, nor should it. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll do that Angus. I changed my vote in that understanding. ASALA acts are already on the article for that organization. They just need to be wikified a bit. Therefore, I will draft something like Acts of assassination by Dashnakists etc. And Elisha Tourian and Moscow Metro Bombing, among others, certainly deserve articles on their own. Cretanforever


 * Delete Unencyclopedic and inherently POV. --InShaneee 00:56, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.