Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Astrid Besser


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 22:10, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Astrid Besser

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not notable enough a tennis player. There are some 1800 ATP-ranked players in singles, 1000+ in doubles, and 1200 WTA singles, and 1000 WTA doubles players at any one time. If every one of these players was deserving of an article, we d need (at least) some 12 000 to 14 000 tennis bios, which would be quite excessive. I think a good rule of thumb for pro tennis is, therefore, top 300 in singles and top 150 in doubles. Besser's high rankings are 356 in singles and 401 in doubles  Mayumashu (talk) 22:21, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions.  -- – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 00:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. Nom provides no policy-based argument for setting WP:ATHLETE aside, and the rationale doesn't add up. What does current rating have to do with notability? Under nom's standard, only highest-ever rating would govern, and nom apparently hasn't checked that for this player. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 04:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. I don't understand Hullaballoo's objection. The nom provided a link to the page for the subject on the official WTA Tour web site, which says that Besser's highest-ever ranking was 356 for singles and 401 for doubles, just as the nom claimed. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You're absolutely right about the high ratings matter; I apparently didn't wait for that page to finish loading and therefore didn't see the highest ratings, which were lower on the page. But I still don't see any reason to disregard WP:ATHLETE and the GNG but instead apply an arbitrary numerical cutoff. She's competed in multiple WTA tournaments, which qualify as "fully professional" competition. If a man who plays in one professional baseball game, or football game, or soccer match qualifies, so should a woman who plays in more than one professional tennis tournament. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 05:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm changing my recommendation to neutral in light of the other discussion here. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 14:06, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep per Hullabaloo Wolfowitz's statement. Everyone who plays professional baseball is considered noteworthy per WP:ATHLETE and there have been something in the ballpark of 12,000 major league baseball players in the US alone, so 12000-14000 tennis bios doesn't seem excessive in that regards.  69.253.207.9 (talk) 12:29, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * this particular player's the equivalent of AAA without having played a major league game, while the 12 000 tennis bios would include the equivalent of all single A level ball players - the major leagues of tennis are WTA tier 1 and ATP Tour levels Mayumashu (talk) 15:39, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * AAA baseball players are notable per WP:ATHLETE because the leagues are fully professional. Perhaps that's too inclusive, I don't have much of an opinion either way, but that's what WP:ATHLETE says. 69.253.207.9 (talk) 19:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * They certainly are, as are single A players - is this encyclopedic content? - according WP:Athlete, we need to have some 60 000 bios for baseball players - all the professional players of all-time - ridiculous. Just to be clear my criticism is of the policy, you and User Wolfowitz are simply, correctly interpreting it Mayumashu (talk) 20:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. If we are compelled to go strictly by WP:ATHLETE then this player is notable, I would say, but common sense surely says otherwise, and that the policy, therefore, needs to be replaced with sport-specific criteria for notability.  For baseball, appearing in at least one major league or Olympics/World Classic tourney team roster (or making one such level appearance?) should be the minimum while for tennis, for singles, maybe then its one appearance in a main draw of a tier I WTA event or ATP 250 or higher, etc., etc.  I don t want to see WP watered down with 20 000 to 100 000 bios for each sport (such complete 'blanketing' should occur for sport-specific wikis, not WP)  Mayumashu (talk) 23:33, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - This is my own unstatistical, bereft of supporting documentation observation of how many AFDs in the past for baseball players have gone. A single appearance in the majors has been held to be sufficient but not necessary condition for notability.  That is, any major league appearance makes one notable, but the lack of a major league appearance isn't an automatic disqualifier.  Evidence of coverage at the minor league level is usually found to support notability for the AAA players.  For Astrid Besser, it's a bit of a muddle as she has played in the qualifiers at WTA premeir events (top tier of teh WTA tour) but has not actually made it out of the qualifiers into the main draw. -- Whpq (talk) 17:04, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep - As a professional athlete, the question is whether she has competed at a fully professional level. The WTA tour is undoubtedly fully professional.  I say weak however because the level of competition is, to use the baseball analogy, a cut below the majors.  Based on her WTA activity, she has been entered in ITF, and WTA International events mostly.  This is not the top level of tennis tours.  She has appeared in the qualifying round of some WTA Premier events however the record indicates that she never made it out of the qualifiers. Some substantial press coverage would go along way to firm up the notability.  This is the best I couod find but it's not very substantial. -- Whpq (talk) 16:53, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking this up. Besser s the equivalent of being on a big-league roster, maybe a late season call-up when the rosters expand, and not playing.  She seems to be an established tier II level player (ie. established AAA player), so to be consistent with keeps for baseball bios, she should then considered notable, I suppose.  Perhaps then a top 400 singles ranking should be the rule of thumb cut-off for tennis players.  In the end, the WP:Athlete needs to be revamped to have sport-specific criteria, which would save certain editors busy at AfD time and effort too! Mayumashu (talk) 02:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This one is really, really borderline for me, and I really waffled around whether this was a weak keep or a weak delete. -- Whpq (talk) 12:12, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.