Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Atlantic International University


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. After all the very likely canvassed or sockpuppeted IPs and new accounts and their walls of text are filtered out, we are left with exactly one established, serious editor who wants to keep the article, and an otherwise unanimous consensus to delete this as a non-notable organization.  Sandstein  20:19, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Atlantic International University

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Could not find any reliable, independent secondary sources with significant coverage of the subject. The closest I found was this, but it doesn't appear to be reliable, at least not for its coverage of AIU. Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:06, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Deleteper nom. --Rubbish computer 11:12, 4 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep Found reliable sources and removed a lot of self serving information. The information from their website has been replaced with reliable sources from others--Number 1 Law Man 8:00, 4 October 2015 (PST) — Number 1 Law Man (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * The sources you added were not reliable, independent secondary sources (per WP:ORG). --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:37, 5 October 2015 (UTC)


 * They can be verified per verifiability I also found this information in the Council for Higher Education Accreditation's international directory for ASIC, the accrediting agency for AIU. Thanks Number 1 Law Man (talk) 15:25, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * ASIC Directory of Accredited Institutions and ASIC registration and operation summary


 * Delete unless third-party sources of information can be found. What is here is nearly all original research, coming from the organization's own web site or from directories. I would even accept reliable sources saying that this is a diploma mill as potentially supporting notability, but have not found anything that I would consider trustworthy. There's considerable chatter in social media, but nothing substantial. LaMona (talk) 00:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep Here I am sharing numerous reliable third-party sources citing the University supporting its notability and verifiability. A few other sources while not passing the strict definition of “reliable” are included as they support keeping the article. For example I found several hundred videos of graduates, while not technically independent it makes the case for being notable and verifiable. I also found 5,966 individuals who name the university as their educational institution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.49.178.221 (talk) 15:59, 5 October 2015‎
 * — 73.49.178.221 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

1,060 scholarly publications available on Google Scholar

UNESCO Study: First Global Forum on International Quality Assurance, Accreditation and the Recognition of Qualifications in Higher Education “Globalization and Higher Education” CASE STUDY - LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN and

Third-Party sources mentioning the university: and and and and

Research Paper on Market Structures and Models: A Situation Analysis (International Journal of Management and Commerce Innovations ISSN 2348-7585 Vol. 2, Issue 2, pp: (385-393), Month: October 2014 - March 2015).

Research Paper: Bonga, Wellington Garikai, An Empirical Investigation of the Nature of Corruption in Zimbabwe (November 7, 2014). Doctorate Thesis, Atlantic International University. Honolulu, Hawai.. Available at SSRN:

205 publications by students:

Additioanl Publications or Third-party mentions: and

5,966 graduates list “Atlantic International University” as their school on LinkedIn and

Several hundred video interviews posted of graduates: http://aiu.edu/Graduation/grids/currentgallery.html

Recoded Academic Conferences:


 * A rote cut-and-paste of every site that has the words "Atlantic International University" isn't helpful. Please identify reliable, independent secondary sources with significant coverage of the subject. We only need a couple of them (not 53). --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Basically, these are all name checks (not counting the ones that aren't even RS, such as YouTube and the site of the U itself). And the one possible RS, Unesco, has a few sentences, basically to point out that the organization has "promotion" offices in Latin American countries but is not accredited. "Although not being a campus per se, some foreign institutions offering on-line courses have promotion offices in the host countries, such as the Atlantic International University...The courses offered by Atlantic International University are not accredited by any recognized agency, nor by the Education Department of the United States nor by the State Education Department of Mexico." ( p. 5) LaMona (talk) 14:37, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Atlantic International Univ is accredited from a recognized body. Please read This & This from Council for Higher Education Accreditation's own international website. I don't think your statement "The courses offered by Atlantic International University are not accredited by any recognized agency" is correct. You are probably reading old information prior to AIU's accreditation, hence the reason you are stating this information. The Legal Eagle (talk) 18:25, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Please note, The Legal Eagle is Number 1 Law Man's new nickname. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:27, 8 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Of the 53 links 23 are from news sites local and international. While many are from local news media outfits like radio and newspapers, others are from well-known international outfits like the BBC, TheGuardian, ElUniversal, Bloomberg, TheIndependent. There are a couple points I would prefer to leave to more seasoned editors, for example video interviews, I realize the links are directly from the university website, however the hundreds of persons archived in those videos are not. These 53 links were not just obtained from a Google Search for "Atlantic International University" since that results in 338,000 search results, 134 news results, and 1720 book results so as you can see considerable effort was taken in filtering the raw results. Due to time limitations I was only able to go through a portion of the search results. Thank you for your contributions and I hope the links will be of help to other editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.49.178.221 (talk) 14:54, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * 73.49.178.221, please provide one example in that list of a reliable, independent secondary source with significant coverage of AIU. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:29, 8 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete as an unaccredited Diploma Mill. From their own website | "ATLANTIC INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY IS NOT ACCREDITED BY AN ACCREDITING AGENCY RECOGNIZED BY THE UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF EDUCATION." In all caps, and bold on their page. Unless, of course, the nature of the article is to expose it, which isn't Wikipedia's job.  Scr ★ pIron IV 15:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Accreditation is a "Voluntary" process in the USA. Please Read this Please know the difference between a Diploma Mill and Unaccredited. Not all NON US accredited institutions are "Diploma Mills" From my understanding and research, a Diploma Mill is when you Pay a flat fee with little or no course work and receive a degree, correct? It appears that AIU has courses you must complete and do a Final Thesis before your graduate just like any other institution. It appears that several of Graduates have published their work. Please read this
 * Your statement appears to be a quick response without any research as to the subject. It's your opinion in which you are entitled but there is no reliable source stating otherwise. There are plenty of sources that AIU is now accredited by a recognized legit accreditation body (ASIC in the UK) including two good sourcesThis & This from Council for Higher Education Accreditation's own international website. On another note, It doesn't matter to me if the article get's deleted or not, but facts are facts and what is right is right. The fact remains that It shouldn't be deleted based on opinions and slander as there are enough sources to prove AIU's legitimacy. I'm done on the subject and wish this article the best of luck. GOD BE WITH YOU and rebuke all the Slander and hateful opinionated views. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.119.59.33 (talk) 16:09, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * They are now accredited by a recognized accrediting body, the ASIC, as has already been established in the Article's Talk page. Regarding its prior unaccredited status; there is frequent confusion between unaccredited and diploma mill as you have clearly done here. A diploma mill sells degrees and has little or no academic work, do you have any evidence of this occurring now or in the past, or is it a supposition of yours. More care should be taken in consideration that actual human beings such as its students, grads or staff are directly harmed if unfair and unsupported defamatory allegations are made. Their accreditation page also states the following which you excluded and ignored. “Atlantic International University is accredited by the Accreditation Service for International Schools, Colleges and Universities (ASIC). ASIC Accreditation is an internationally renowned quality standard for colleges and universities. Visit ASIC’s Directory of Accredited Colleges and Universities . ASIC is a member of CHEA International Quality Group (CIQG) in the USA, an approved accreditation body by the Ministerial Department of the Home Office in the UK, and is listed in the International Directory of the Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA) .” The process of accreditation with the ASIC includes the following areas of evaluation and inspection, did you carry out a similar analysis to support your opinion and defamatory accusation against the institution and its students.
 * ASIC evaluation and inspection visit includes review of 8 key areas: ,
 * Premises, and Health and Safety
 * Governance, Management and Staff Resources
 * Learning, Teaching and Research Activity
 * Quality Assurance and Enhancement
 * Student Welfare
 * Awards and Qualifications
 * Marketing and Recruitment of Students
 * Systems Management and Compliance with Immigration Regulations — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.49.178.221 (talk) 16:31, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment:, , and may be the same individual or closely affiliated and show signs of COI editing. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:35, 7 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment: Wow, Really?  is not and I have no idea who this person is. Now you are trying to make false accusations.,  You ask me to create a User Name in which I complied. You are really trying your best to get this article deleted. Is it that serious? You do know Wikipedia is a public website right? I'm sure there are many others who are viewing this information. Come on now.  Let's be more ethical and not make false accusations. I don't know you personally, but I'm sure you can be a little more level headed. It's not a good look and it makes you look either desperate or if you don't get your way, you start using false accusations to plead your case. If there is a way to prove that I am not affiliated with the above mentioned then provide the Wikipedia information and I will do so. I can care carless if the article stays or goes, but all sources and references have been provided per the reason you are trying your best to get deleted  Number 1 Law Man (talk) 18:27, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * If you're neither the same individual as nor affiliated with either of those IP addresses then I apologize. The thing is, all of you appear to be single purpose accounts dedicated to defending AIU. Moreover, the conversation at Talk:Atlantic International University appears to link you with 38.119.59.33 and even more closely with other IP addresses from the same geographic region. 73.49.178.221 comes from a different geographic region, but its editing patterns are extremely similar to 38.119.59.33. But look, I'm not opening a sockpuppet investigation on you; I'm merely flagging this as a potential issue for the closing admin. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:22, 7 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Ok. Got it. If this helps any, I am on the West Coast (Northern California) Number 1 Law Man (talk) 20:00, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Well that's strange, because the IP addresses you were using at Talk:Atlantic International University were all from SoCal. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:23, 7 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Huum, I am on my work computer and working remotely so I don't know. I am currently in Northern Cal Number 1 Law Man (talk) 20:29, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hawaii-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:08, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Websites-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:08, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:08, 8 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep The university is notable due to its unique program structure and methodology. In essence, the program gives you the tools and support to be your own university. The program is composed of 4 Phases. Phase one seeks to determine the student past present and outline a detailed future plan in 20 areas. Here the student makes a detailed outline of what he would like to learn, needs to learn, is relevant, and identifies his individual S.W.O.T., and what is practically applicable to his present and/or future real world life/work situation. So in a way it is a backwards approach to a typical university program in that the student first learns about himself and identifies what he needs to learn to reach his stated goals before determining the courses/topics/content/assignments. In a typical university, a predetermined curriculum is used and courses follow a standardized syllabus for all student who take it. Phase two starts with the submission of the student self-developed study plan and courses to the academic department for feedback and approval. This is the most difficult and challenging portion of the program where I came close to dropping out. It is also what makes it unique. The university offered me the option of selecting from standardized courses it has created. I also had weekly optional assignments and reading materials sent to me which I could develop and integrate into my selected courses. There is an archive in the elearning platform of several hundred such optional assignments to choose from. Apparently many students struggle to create their own personalized courses or simply prefer to follow a typical “standardized” curriculum. In the end about half of my courses were standardized and the other half I defined and developed the content, selected most of the reading materials from the online library and proposed assignments that would demonstrate my gained knowledge with some help from my academic advisor and tutor. In the end I found the courses I self-developed to be the best choice because all the content was of interest to me and NON-theoretical, it was real life stuff I wanted to learn about and try out first hand. The standardized courses I took were mostly theoretical with lessons and quizzes and a lot of content that you typically see in college text books. Phase two also includes 4 books that are considered introductory courses. One of the books became one of the most eye opening books I have ever read “The Hidden Connections” by Fritjof Capra which prompted me to read several other of his books. I was able to complete one course every one to three months depending on my available time and desire finally reaching the needed credits to start phase three which is the development of a Thesis. Phase four is mostly just some admin requirements surveys and documents that are submitted to the univ. I am glad to have stuck with the program as I came to realize its significance in breaking with the typical mold and as a serious alternative to typical university programs. I have attended four universities, all save for AIU were traditional universities and I cannot hold one above another in that each provided me valuable tools and knowledge. However, no program I have experienced or heard of follows an academic program even remotely similar to that of this university. I am not sure if my status as an alumni changes my neutrality on the matter, I don’t think so, as I am also an alumni of several other universities. Nevertheless that was my two cents on the matter, other editors are free to consider and use this (or not) as they wish…  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.202.182.50 (talk) 17:24, 8 October 2015 (UTC)  — 189.202.182.50 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Thank you for your opinion, but what does this have to do with the relevant guideline? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:31, 8 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment Just an FYI, some of these editors should really be careful as to what they write for the public to see United States defamation law. I would hate to see another suit added along with the rest of the suits https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#safe=active&q=wikipedia+defamation+law+suits. Saying things like "Diploma Mill" and other false accusations etc.. about an institution when they are in fact NOT, can cause some issues. I'm just saying Number 1 Law Man (talk) 00:10, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * No legal threats is a basic tenet of Wikipedia. Please do not make even implied threats, as per that policy. LaMona (talk) 19:16, 10 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete as absolutely no evidence of notability has been offered. The best the keep supporters seem to have managed is gathering every last trivial mention of ALU they could find on the internet, which is proof of absolutely nothing. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:27, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

— Ntzatza (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep The provided informations are reliable http://aiu.edu/Accreditation.html and this raises question why it should be deleted. The University has been in existence for so many years and has trained majority of adult professionals all over the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ntzatza (talk • contribs) 17:50, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete Unaccredited (one of the definitions of a diploma mill) um, school does not meet WP:ORG, despite legal threats and SPAs.  Mini  apolis  23:38, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. Unaccredited (or what amounts to the same thing, accredited only by organizations not recognized within the home country of the institution) colleges are not automatically notable — instead we need to evaluate whether they pass WP:ORG — and in this case we have no evidence that it does. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:02, 10 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete. The arguments for deletion are based on the fact that there is a lack of sources that satisfy Wikipedia's guidelines. The arguments for keeping, on the other hand, are largely based on grounds that have nothing to do with Wikipedia's guidelines and policies, such as "its unique program structure and methodology", "its significance in breaking with the typical mold and as a serious alternative to typical university programs", "has been in existence for so many years", "provided me valuable tools and knowledge", "several hundred videos of graduates" and so on. There are also claims of reliable sources from one or more editors who do not, however, give any links to those sources, so that they are completely unverifiable. I was going to close this discussion as "delete" myself, but I decided that since I have edited the article, it will be better to just comment here and leave it to another administrator. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 13:18, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. While there clearly are issues with this article, AfD is not about cleaning up an article. There has also been a lot of inappropriate hot air here. Nevertheless, it is established practice that articles on universities and secondary schools are kept unless they are a hoax. This university exists. It awards degrees at least after some courses and assessment. It should be kept and cleaned up. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  14:40, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * No, we actually have an explicit guideline saying that all universities and secondary schools must satisfy WP:ORG. (And btw no one here has been talking about cleaning up the article.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:58, 12 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.