Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Atpic


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. The !votes that comply with policy are almsot entirely one-sided. Consensus is that this is not notable enough for an article. Courcelles 00:33, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Atpic

 * – ( View AfD View log ) •

Non-notable photo sharing site. I am unable to find independent and verifiable, third party coverage of this site. Alexa rank is over 600k (admittedly a poor metric in determining notability though). VQuakr (talk) 03:55, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Websites-related deletion discussions.  —hkr  Laozi speak  05:45, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Photography-related deletion discussions.  —hkr  Laozi speak  05:45, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Note, If you came here because of an atpic community email or discussion, remember that this discussion is not a vote. I have been using atpic for years now, and I think it's a great site offering an excellent free service, but I'm not convinced that it's notable.  If you would like to make a case for notability, please see the notability criteria for websites and demonstrate here that atpic satisfies them.  Also please declare any conflicts of interest that you might have. --Slashme (talk) 11:12, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete, possibly promotional entry on an obscure photosharing site. There's nothing to back up any claims of notability. The only results are classified ads for an unrelated service dating back to the 1950s-1980s.--hkr Laozi speak  05:44, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment I am not sure how you managed to get those 10 results from google. A plain URL request asking for the site's name not coming for the site itself http://www.google.com/search?q=atpic.com+-site%3Aatpic.com returns 15k+ results Alexmadon (talk) 12:53, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. Atpic is a generic name. There are a lot of things called Atpic. "Atpic photosharing", which is the subject of the AfD, brings up 10 results on Google News, which is more relevant. Also, since you've admitted that you're the creator of Atpic, the conflict of interest issue remains. --hkr Laozi speak  12:37, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry but the creator of the page can participate to this talk. The +atpic.com will search the EXACT string (the five letters followed by the dot followed by the three letters). As on the Internet DNS names are unique, that search guarantees that (almost) all results will be about this site! Alexmadon (talk) 20:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I never said you couldn't. I said that editing the Atpic article is a clear conflict of interest, and it is. I apologise for the second part, I didn't notice you had "atpic.com" as your search term (you can't blame me, I was half asleep...). But the point remains. Google News shows 10 results, mostly trivial or unrelated. You would have known had you clicked my link, and I'll admit I should have read your comment carefully before replying (I guess we're both half asleep, eh?). You need a lot more than that to get this article kept. And so far you haven't demonstrated that!--hkr Laozi speak  21:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I would suggest you write I believe (or think) you haven't demonstrated that rather than you haven't demonstrated that, just for respect of the users who do not think like you. Alexmadon (talk) 08:38, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've done nothing but refer to the WP:N criteria, which is established consensus. These are not my personal beliefs, as you've implied, they are guidelines that all articles on Wikipedia must follow. Your customers may want this article kept, and that's perfectly fine, but this is an enclopedia with rules and policies for inclusion. Please understand that I've got nothing personally against you or the customers at Atpic. The article just needs to meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines to kept, and it hasn't.--hkr Laozi speak  11:31, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * there are no customers here, as the site is free and as there is no company either. Please use the word users or community members. Alexmadon (talk) 11:49, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also you wrote that search returns 10 results? OK, I know that I have to assume good faith, but here I think you are pushing a bit too far; Even a plain google search with atpic photosharing i.e. http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=atpic+photosharing returns 1.5k results! Maybe your google is not the same as my google... I attach a screen shot at: http://pic.atpic.com/2026404 of the google results for that request Alexmadon (talk) 20:53, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me clarify: Google News returns 10 results, and that's the search that matters. Normal GHITs aren't factored in since the results are mainly trivial, forum posts are not considered by policy to be reliable sources. After all, we are hunting for sources as required by WP:N, and not a random posting on Twitter, aren't we? ;)--hkr Laozi speak  21:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete as above. Also note that Alexa rank is 632,932... for comparison's sake, the similar site Flickr is ranked 36. Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  14:58, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep, the alexa stats cannot cope with the site multi subdomains (username.atpic.com). Look at the quantcast stats instead: http://www.quantcast.com/atpic.com?country=FR Those are direct measurements with a javascript async call to quantserve servers. Rank France 869 on Quantcast, rank France 29,892 on Alexa (a factor 34!!!) The firefox plugin of Alexa just sucks. It just means that the population using Atpic does not like to to install the Alexa plugin... Alexmadon (talk) 20:29, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - Ok, I debated not mentioning the Alexa rank in my nomination and in retrospect probably should not have due to the distraction factor. Have nontrivial, independent works been published about this subject? VQuakr (talk) 23:31, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment mmm, I cannot find the previous Deletion request page but that has already been discussed. Atpic is not an idea, it is a web site. If you have doubts about the truth of what is written in the wikipedia page, just open a (free) atpic account and check by yourself what is written is true. Alexmadon (talk) 09:44, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. "just open a (free) atpic account and check by yourself" That's blatant advertising, and on the AfD too! For shame, sir. Also, the flood of single-purpose accounts is not helping your case.--hkr Laozi speak  12:41, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No, no advertising here. Just checking facts. What flood are you talking about? Please do no bite newcomers. Or are you talking about your 10 days old account? Alexmadon (talk) 21:22, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm referring to all the keeps below me, that "mysteriously" popped out of the woodwork when initally, it was all deletes. Pointing out an observation not directed at any specific user is not biting, I mean, just look at their keep rationales: "I am a happy user of it since 2004" and "Great Service!". Be civil and assume good faith, you've linked to the article, now practice what you preach. I'm relatively new too (and it's 15 days now, about half a month!) so you don't try biting me either! That's not to say I haven't participated or edited as an IP address before. --hkr Laozi speak  21:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep, same as above, the site is notable and I am a happy user of it since 2004. I guess not PR article can be found on the internet because the site is free and the site owner never wanted to invest in a PR article. Photoact (talk) 11:11, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: Not relevant according to Notability_(web). --Slashme (talk) 11:17, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep It definitely is popular. Rather than ranking, check the number of users and site activity.(talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.9.217 (talk) 11:06, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: Not relevant according to Notability_(web) --Slashme (talk) 11:17, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep, same as above : notable site. User since... 1994 and very happy of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bistouille (talk • contribs) 12:14, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep the Atpic. It's service right for me. I use it 2 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.113.222.250 (talk) 14:02, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep the Atpic! Great service! Easy to use and to create an account. You can upload pics with different resolutions. Very happy with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.114.31.144 (talk) 14:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep I have been using Atpic for a few years now, free hosting , no banners , what else could one want ! Keep the atpic site at wikipedia !!!!! Queezel


 * Keep. Not only does atpic include features not available on most free photo-sharing websites, most notably ftp upload and direct linking, the notability objection is without merit.  atpic has been mentioned both online and in print.  A paperbook presently available at amazon.com includes a chapter about atpic: http://www.amazon.com/Photo-Sharing-Websites-Mobileme-Polanoid/dp/1155680111, also atpic is noted on the following websites: http://photo-sharing-websites.no1reviews.com/atpic.html, http://www.shortcourses.com/display/display1-11.html, http://www.xmarks.com/site/www.atpic.com/, http://digitalweddingguide.com/websites-to-show-your-photography-portfolio-business, http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews146809.html, http://www.ilikesharingvideos.com/video-sharing-sites/en/atpic/sort-alphabetically/.  atpic.com is a useful, non-commercial, photo-sharing website.  It's omission from Wikipedia would hurt the public good by limiting users' options for photo-sharing and direct linking to pictures.  When a free and unique-featured service is available to Internet users, we should collectively make an effort to make descriptive information available to Wikipedia users.  Otherwise we will all be forced to use only commercial services offered by the big guns at a price they determine.  --Woodyrox (talk) 15:48, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:SPAM. Wikipedia is not for promoting any organisation or individual. It is an encyclopaedia, not a directory. Peridon (talk) 15:58, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete A note to newcomers: Whether or not you use the site is irrelevant. If you want to save the article, get some references that comply with WP:RS and WP:GNG and add them to the article (and tell us here. In the meantime, no references means no indication of notability given. As a matter of interest, the French Wikipedia article was deleted earlier this month, and I've removed the transwiki link to the German language Wikipedia, as the article there wasn't about Atpic and had been deleted in 2007 anyway. The Russian transwiki link goes to an article on photosharing with no mention of Atpic, so I've removed that too. Otherwise, per nom. Peridon (talk) 15:56, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I would like to point out that my delete is based on the article and not the product or service. I don't use photosharing (except for avatar hosting elsewhere) and have no opinion on the greatness or otherwise of Atpic. It is not shown to comply with Wikipedia's standards for inclusion. You can do something about that. Read the policies I've mentioned, and get the proof that it is notable. Your opinion doesn't count. Proof does. See WP:V. You can save the article (and have a moment of glory), but it won't be by posts like those so far made in support. It'll be by work. Peridon (talk) 16:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 *  Keep  I made changes to the article's "References" and "External links" sections by adding some of the info from my discussion post. But being a newcomer, I am uncertain if I did this properly.  Please let me know if more is needed. --Woodyrox (talk) 16:49, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * At last... You could do to get some independent sources that we here can check. Books are valid sources, but are somewhat suspect to those of us who frequent AfD if nothing else is around.... You've usually got about a week on AfD. The refs to folksonomies (or whatever...) are OK to have, but you must show Atpic's notability. Atpic site is no good as a ref, and forums and blogs are not much good - but the existence of an Atpic specific forum might help. Non-PR stuff is needed - independent reviews are quite good. Peridon (talk) 16:55, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I too modified the Atpic page with an extra book reference: Digital Photography for Next to Nothing: Free and Low Cost Hardware and Software to Help You Shoot Like a Pro, John Lewell (Author) Excerpt - page 281: " ... FREE, supported by other income. Atpic A very small site, developed and maintained in France mostly by Alex Madon, Atpic, shown in Figure 30.1, is FREE ... " Paperback: 384 pages Publisher: John Wiley & Sons (14 May 2010) Language English ISBN 978-0470687260 Product Dimensions: 23.1 x 18.5 x 2.5 cm Amazon Bestsellers Rank: 132,777 in Books. Atpic is mentioned as one of the best (should I say notable?) free photo sharing sites at Part VII: Sharing & Publishing your work, Chapter 30: FREE Online Photo-Sharing Sites, Selected FREE Online Photo-Sharing Sites. Getting the excerpt is easy: just search for Atpic on amazon. I attached a screen shot also at: http://pic.atpic.com/2019119 for those who have doubts. John Wiley & Sons is generally seen as a very serious publisher so I hope that this DOES count for notability. Alexmadon (talk) 17:16, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The references are too few to satisfy Wikipedia's notability guideline. And they are trivial mentions, you need sources that focus on the subject, not just listing Atpic among a bunch of other photosharing sites.--hkr Laozi speak  13:00, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep It is a popular site which provides a good service. I actually found out about it from wikipedia. Thomas d stewart (talk) 19:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep, what is the joke? Which criteria Atpic brakes, what is the reason for deletion? Atpic.com is the most advanced photo hosting service, covering Google Picasa, Microsoft photo.live.com, Yahoo Flickr, among many others. Only Imageshack.us (Yellow Frog) is comparable with Atpic.com. I am a proud user of Atpic hosting, Opera browser, Mercury & Pegasus Mail, Textpattern CMS, and other best products — should we remove all them from Wikipedia for lack of popularity among simpleton users? -- Vienuolis (talk) 20:12, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Would you please read my posts above? (This applies to the two posters above this.) 21:00, 24 October 2010 (UTC)Peridon (talk)
 * I guess that what Vienuolis means is that wikipedia ought to mention not only the most notable sites but also the alternatives. Like for the tag links on the wikipedia page, there is a power law here too: the most popular photo sharing site (or whatever subject specific site), will take 90% of the market share, then the next most important will take say 6% of the market share, etc... so the real question is where to cut the long tail? To me, the site is notable enough to have its wikipedia page.
 * To you, perhaps. But on Wikipedia, all articles have to follow the notability guideline. No exceptions. And this article does not meet any of the required criteria.--hkr Laozi speak  13:04, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * no exceptions? Then you will need to remove most of the wikipedia. Other photo sharing sites listed in the wikipedia do not have more books or article links to prove notability than atpic, see: BlueMelon, Woophy, Piczo for instance. Most of them already went through AfD and were kept. THIS ARTICLE too went through AfD and was kept but somebody deleted the previous talk. Too bad. This page should be named AfD 2nd nomination and should include the first debate.Alexmadon (talk) 20:39, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * And the "other stuff exists" argument is a weak one, for a very simple reason: "The nature of Wikipedia means that you cannot make a convincing argument based solely on what other articles do or do not exist; because there is nothing stopping anyone from creating any article."--hkr Laozi speak  21:25, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Question: Is wikipedia meant to record popular things, or explain stuff?  If it is, it really should be dropped as a reference site.  Could the real issue here be how to present all of the photo recording sites?  Photo sharing is the real topic, and the means should really be subtopics.  2049, October 24, 2010, UTC jsae  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.174.97.23 (talk) 22:14, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep: the site has decent google counts, it is almost always mentioned in photo sharing comparison reviews, some books cite the site, the quantcast rank is very good. (Also as the site allows hot linking, hotlinks won't trigger a count to the ranking sites, on the contrary to applets). All this to me is enough to qualify for a keep. Tutankabron (talk) 10:12, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Question: I've never been involved in a topic deletion process. How does this process proceed and how is the final decision made? --Woodyrox (talk) 17:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Woodyrox: the whole process is described at Articles_for_deletion. The relevance of the deletion of a page is generally discussed during one week, or more if no clear decision can be made after one week of debate. Thanks Alexmadon (talk) 18:57, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The final decision is made by a closing admin, someone who hasn't taked part in the discussion but who reads through the page here (and sometimes I feel very sorry for the unfortunate admin. I don't know if they choose or are chosen. Peridon (talk) 10:47, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep: When looking for a non-commercial hosting photo site, atpic was one of the sole alternatives. Is that not remarquable enought ? Remind that Flickr is own by yahoo and Picassa by Google ! These sites works by putting ads online and by selling your personal data. I found this site thanks to Wikipedia, actually. It would be really a sad from wikipedia to delete the article. Ah, and I think google search scores are a really poor way of evaluating the interest for a Wikipedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.17.11.20 (talk) 08:50, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Nit pick: you can't have one of sole alternatives - sole means the only one and there are no others. We don't count the Google scores as such - it's what comes up that's searched through for sources meeting WP:RS. If you all really want to save this article, READ the policy and put the references in. Don't just waffle on about how good it is - PROVE IT. We aren't trying to get this deleted for fun. It's because there's no indication it meets OUR requirements for articles. I'd be happy enough to see it survive - with the necessary additions... Peridon (talk) 10:47, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Peridon, with the help of google, I added to the references section three papers mentioning Atpic, what do you think? They are not paper about Atpic but they mention Atpic as an example in their paper. I'd say that this shows somehow the notability of Atpic.Alexmadon (talk) 12:33, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * A French research paper about folksonomies gives Atpic and Flickr as photo sharing sites examples, IC2010 Ingenierie des connaissances, Nimes, France (2010) "Les motifs sequentiels au service de la structuration des folksonomies", Sandra Bringay, Maguelonne Teisseire, Julien Gomila, Damien Hoffschir and Thibault Vicaire. A copy can be retrieved from http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/48/77/32/PDF/IC_2010_VF.pdf


 * A UK paper cites (page 270) Flickr, Picassa and Atpic as social photo sharing networks Journal of Media Practice Volume 10 Number 2&3, p267-272, Intelect 2009 'The changing flux in the photograph at the precipice of change: the phototrix and the death of the photograph', Yon Marsh, North East Surrey College of Technology, UK. A copy can be retrieved from: http://www.yonmarsh.org.uk/phototrix/Phototrix.pdf


 * A Greek research paper writes about photo sharing sites "such as Atpic, Flickr, Imageshack, ipernity, Jalbum,. Photobucket, Piczo.com, Picasa, SmugMug, Webshots, and. Zooomr." in An Automatic Multi-Agent Web Image and Associated Keywords Retrieval System Papadakis, N. Ntalianis, K. Doulamis, A. Stamoulis, G. Comput. & Commun. Eng. Dept., Univ. of Thessaly, Volos, Greece Systems, Signals and Image Processing, 2009. IWSSIP 2009. 16th International Conference on Issue Date: 18-20 June 2009 On page(s): 1 - 4 Location: Chalkida Print ISBN: 978-1-4244-4530-1 INSPEC Accession Number: 11023559 Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/IWSSIP.2009.5367695 Date of Current Version: 28 December 2009 A copy can be retrieved from: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/5367684/5367685/05367695.pdf?arnumber=5367695
 * Note that these are just trivial sources and the WP:N guideline requires sources that focus on the subject of the article. A brief mention among a long list of photosharing sites does not satisfy WP:N.--hkr Laozi speak  12:53, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Dr. LL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.237.180 (talk) 19:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep: An encyclopaedia exists not only for the purpose of dealing with mainstream topics, but also makes a point of dealing with less common ones. If Atpic is little known, who cares? Someone is bound to go fishing for information about it anyway. Plus, if Wikipedia reduces exposure of little known sites/topics, it indirectly keeps promoting better known ones. Athomic69 (talk) 12:20, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * We do! An online encyclopedia is still an encyclopedia. Simply existing does not merit an article, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Check out the guidelines and policies at WP:N and WP:NOT.--hkr Laozi speak  12:56, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 *  Keep : Added another source which mentions atpic. It's an eBook from shortcourses.com, a website which specializes in photography ebooks. The eBook can be found at http://www.shortcourses.com/store/display2.html, the specific mention of atpic is in the "Taxonomy and Folksonomy" section in the "Publishing Your Photos -- Photo Sharing Sites" chapter which is linked here http://www.shortcourses.com/display/display1-11.html. --Woodyrox (talk) 13:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep: One of the goals of Wikipedia is to broaden the horizons, introduce new topic -- and new sites! Atpic is an example of photo-sharing web sites.  As such, Wikipedia should cover it!...
 * Yes, and they need to be referenced. Instead of telling us regulars how Wikipedia works, why not read the policies WP:GNG and WP:RS and then discuss it - or even better, get into gear and FIND the references. It's not up to US - see WP:BURDEN. Sorry if this seems like biting - I do get tired of people not taking any notice when they're told. This doesn't apply to Woodyrox etc who are trying.Peridon (talk) 17:25, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,   Wifione    .......  Leave a message  14:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached. Currently, despite there being a numerically high figure of keep votes, the logic for keeping is absent in most, leave two of them. Assuming good faith on the ips, I have no issues in relisting this AfD


 * Delete Whether it is the best photo hosting site or not (is there some objective measure of this?) is immaterial. It does not satisfy the criteria listed in WP:N. Catfish Jim   &#38; the soapdish  14:58, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete. There really isn't much else to say here (Peridon definitely drove the point home), but...what part of WP:N do you keep !voters not understand? Erpert (let's talk about it) 16:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep: Admittedly, ATPIC references are scarce, which should make it hard to match WP:N. However, Google returns close to 30000 direct links to atpic user galleries, which suggests at least that many people know it, use it, presumably point their acquaintances to it. I suggest we appreciate WP:N against that proven 30000 audience. Athomic69 (talk) 09:20, 03 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete Fails WEB miserably, Alexa and google hits are irrelevant. Multiple SPAs !voting seems to indicate some form of puppetry. SmartSE (talk) 11:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.