Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Augustus Mbusya Kavutu


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. I can put this somewhere outside mainspace if the content is needed for grading. Spartaz Humbug! 22:40, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Augustus Mbusya Kavutu

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Attempted to move this to draftspace to allow it to incubate in case there was maybe something else, but it was moved back to main and in my cursory WP:BEFORE I'm not seeing anything.

Per WP:NTRACK criterion 6: a marathon runner must either: 1) Win multiple notable road races 2) Finish in top 3 in ten notable road races.

Road race notability is determined by if it is an IAAF label event, receives broadcast or cable coverage (beyond local) or is a directly competitive race between at least 5 wikinotable racers.

Subject doesn't have 10+ top threes. And his two wins are at the Twin Cities and Little Rock marathon. Both fail the three above mentioned criterion. Note: The 2004 TC win was before IAAF labels, but from 2008-present IAAF has never listed the TC marathon as a label event.

Beyond that not seeing anything to pass WP:GNG as all coverage of the subject doesn't go much beyond WP:ROUTINE winner coverage. Sulfurboy (talk) 07:50, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete - Does not satisfy general notability, which is vague. I prefer special notability guidelines over GNG because they are often clearer, and I would prefer to see them stand alone rather than be dependent on GNG.  In this case we have a special notability guideline that is not much of an improvement over GNG, and there isn't any clear basis for inclusion either under GNG or SNG.  I would prefer to clarify track notability, but maybe it is written the way it should be written.  Robert McClenon (talk) 14:53, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. Sulfurboy (talk) 07:50, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kenya-related deletion discussions. Sulfurboy (talk) 07:50, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Strong Publish as Article — Hello to Sulfurboy and Robert McClenon! Thank you for your diligent editing in the Wikipedia digital realm. I'm an educator, trying out an assignment for the second year. The students in my writing course first created annotated bibliographies of athletes, most of whom are marginalized and not included on Wikipedia due to language barriers and cultural barriers (for example, Kavutu was not an All-American NCAA athlete because he was born and lived in Kenya).
 * In the class, we are working to practice principles of verification and clear, neutral writing. Another goal is for students to see Wikipedia as a collaborative text they can add to, even if it doesn't promote a financial interest (i.e. this is collaborative work for the public good).
 * All the students first wrote draft pages in Microsoft Word and were in the process of learning wiki-markup in order to draft strong, credible pages for Wikipedia entries (though our time was limited to two weeks for this project). They are conscious of the rules of Wikipedia, but still learning, as they are students. Your participation in this process (though unknowingly), may actually be helpful for students.
 * After they did the work early in the semester and (most of them) posted their drafts, they did get quite a response. It has not gone as smoothly as I hoped, and I've since learned about the educational Wikipedia site, which I hope to dig into later this summer before working on another project for a different semester.
 * As it is, the students are nearing the end of the semester, so I'm wrapping back around and attempting to help them move their drafts to Articles (I'm not an expert on here either, but I've been learning fast!)
 * Please recognize that one goal of mine is for college students to see Wikipedia as an active, growing document that they can contribute to—it is not a completed encyclopedia! This is a common conception for many students. "Wikipedia exists, and I can find all the answers there," they think, "but I can't be part of it because I'm not technical." My hope is that the students feel empowered to create and begin to think of themselves as belonging in a "technical" and collaborative editing space.
 * However, I know none of this matters unless the athlete is considered "notable." In this case, we have an athlete with top 10 finishes in many large marathons (though they are not all listed yet in the article), including World Athletics certified races. Also, the Twin Cities Marathon is a large race that has even been the USA Marathon Championship race for several of the years it was run. The prize purse is high, the competition is very strong.
 * I argue that the athlete is notable, but this student could use some more help with research and building the article. do need some help building the article more. Wouldn't it make sense to keep this just for the Twin Cities Marathon win if other runners such as Risa Takenaka and Sayo Nomura have pages?
 * Thanks for your work on this website, and thanks for your help with this article!
 * Comm260 ncu (talk) 21:29, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , This is the very glaring issue with assigning creating a Wikipedia page as part of a class. Creating Wikipedia pages is one of the most difficult tasks you can do on Wikipedia, some editors go years without creating their first article. Another reason is because teachers, much less students, usually do not have a proper understanding of our policies and there is disappointments that occur when articles don't get published or get deleted that even further discourages students from ever editing again. Doubly so if a grade is tied to it. Some of the points of misunderstanding you might have are:1) Just because other stuff exists WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, doesn't mean this article should. The two articles you bring up may have their own issues that need to be addressed (the second one in particular).2) Wikipedia does not give special credence to articles just because the articles were written by students, nor would we lessen our standards to encourage people to continue editing Wikipedia, that would completely defeat the purpose. 3) We have notability standards in place (such as the ones I stated in the nomination). Instead of addressing these standards, you have responded with very subjective ones. I would highly recommend reading WP:ASSIGN before using Wikipedia as a teaching tool in the manner you did again. Even many veteran Wikipedian editors run into mixed results when using article creation on Wikipedia as a teaching tool. Sulfurboy (talk) 00:59, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Great tips, Sulfurboy! I appreciate your passion. How did you get into editing on Wikipedia? You are very knowledgable. I will definitely look into that ASSIGN. Rest easy knowing that something like this is graded on effort (there is too much beyond a single student's control). The mentality that the site is participatory (and that students, not just technocrats) can edit—that is more the point. As I mentioned, none of this matters unless a person is considered "notable." As for the standards, are you looking to have more details added about the races in which he has finished top 10? I will look into that next week. Thanks again! Comm260 ncu (talk) 01:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I just did a search for Augustus Kavutu and it seems as though more sources appear. Could be a name differentiation issue at work here as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Comm260 ncu (talk • contribs) 19 April 2020 01:44 (UTC)


 * Delete - I agree with that we should use the specific notability guidelines in WP:NTRACK rather than use the WP:GNG. I don't think this subject passes any of the criteria in WP:NTRACK, so the subject should be considered non-notable and the article should be deleted. Ikjbagl (talk) 23:08, 26 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.