Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aunt Bee


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Comments made after a list of sources was provided converged on keeping the article. RL0919 (talk) 23:55, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Aunt Bee

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Many sources in the article are primary, a quick Google search does not give any sources that prove individual notability. If the character is not notable, I suggest a redirect and/or merge to List of The Andy Griffith Show characters. Spinixster  (chat!)  07:07, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy,  and Television.  Spinixster   (chat!)  07:07, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to List of The Andy Griffith Show characters. The article is unsourced and the sources to show notability do not seem to exist. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:29, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect per suggestion by QuicoleJR. Do not merge. Unsourced material is not dumped elsewhere in Wikipedia; it gets deleted. -The Gnome (talk) 14:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect as WP:ATD. There isn't any sourced material to WP:PRESERVE and it doesn't meet even our most basic policies. If someone eventually does find some reliable coverage, it can be expanded at the redirect target. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:03, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  The book provides extensive analysis of Aunt Bee. The book notes: "The links between the aunt as mother, the nuclear family, and cultural nostalgia for a sanitized version of American small-town life are starkly evident across the episodes of The Andy Griffith Show that centrally feature Aunt Bee (about 55 out of 249 original shows). Aunt Bee mothers both her widowed nephew, Sheriff Andy Taylor, and his son, Opie, in the absence of a wife and mother. Aunt Bee was introduced into the Griffith bachelor household in the premiere episode "The New Housekeeper."" The plot centers on Opie's resistance to her and his eventual acceptance based on his realization of her need to care for him and his father and their need for maternal love and housekeeping order. Given that the show casts her as the maternal center of the Taylor family, she affirms the promise of the nuclear family as a source of nurture, resilience, and strength, offering cultural reassurance that the bosom of the family is larger than the biological mother (a reassurance physically embodied in the plump, matronly dowdiness of actress Frances Bavier)." The book later notes: "In spite of the assurances of the maternal aunt figure, Aunt Bee transgresses this depiction of idealized American family life in subtle ways that invite us to critically examine this representation of the maternal aunt and her place in the family. First, her presence unsettles the insularity and stability of the nuclear family. By standing in for the deceased mother, Aunt Bee marks an absence in the familial triangle, creating a dynamic imbalance that unsettles assumptions even as it affirms the value of the mother and the ideal family. In addition, Aunt Bee belies the cultural promise of feminine fulfillment in marriage, home, and family. Several episodes revolve around Aunt Bee's need to ..."   The book provides seven pages of coverage about the subject. The book notes: "Bee Taylor is a warm and gentle lady. She has been baptized. She is Mayberry's Good Samaritan, and it is her tender heart, which is as wide as her kitchen, that makes everyone love her. It can truly be said that a stranger has never entered the Taylor house, because Aunt Bee makes all feel right at home immediately. Bee takes mighty fine care of Andy and Opie by nourishing them both physically and spiritually. The coffeepot is never empty, and the cookie jar is always full in Aunt Bee's kitchen. And there's plenty of homemade loving to go around."   The book notes: "The character of Aunt Bee, played by Frances Bavier, provided a stable domestic center for Andy and Opie. Like Griffith, Knotts, and Dodson, she had a strong theatrical background. ... The Andy Griffith Show provided her with her longest and most successful run—from 1960 to 1971. Unlike Griffith, she continued in the series when it became Mayberry, R.F.D. As the fussing and matronly Aunt Bee, Bavier's acting was always precise. Kindly, sympathetic, domestic, and somewhat naive, Aunt Bee was at her best when housekeeping for the Taylors or becoming "tiddly" after purchasing some tonic from an itinerant medicine man. Although she sometimes provided complications for Andy—as when she appeared to be dating the married butter-and-egg man, or when she went off on a visit, leaving Andy to maintain order in the house—she ostensibly served as a sort of mother-aunt-wife to Andy, one who looked after his home, son, and stomach. They cared for each other, respected each other, but there was not a strong emotional tie between them. Both characters, but especially Aunt Bee kept a tight rein on their feelings in favor of domestic and social propriety."   The book notes: "It's no surprise that a cook as wonderful as Aunt Bee can't keep her talents hidden under a bushel basket. She once entertained international palates when a Russian-American summit meeting took place in her house. And she even went Oriental when she opened Aunt Bee's Canton Palace, a Chinese restau- rant. Though an unpretentious soul, Aunt Bee has had her moments in the sun. She won the Tampico Tamale Contest with a grand prize of a trip to Mexico. ... What Aunt Bed means most of all to Mayberry is love. Whether it's her delicious cooking, her warm smile, or her caring hugs, nobody brings more heartfelt love to Mayberry than Aunt Bee."   The article notes: "At times, the benefits of expanded parentage and nonparent childcare orders over parental objection are clear: Opies need Aunt Bees, and Aunt Bees need Opies. Andy clearly invited Bee to help rear Opie. In the event of a falling out, any newfound displeasure Andy had with Bee would probably have nothing to do with Bee’s care of—or love for—Opie. Allowing courts to order continuing contact between Bee and Opie on Bee’s request and over Andy’s objection in order to serve Opie’s interests seems quite sensible."  There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Aunt Bee to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 08:38, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how reliable or independent the fourth source is because it is a cookbook based on Aunt Bee's recipes, and the note is from the introduction of the character.
 * The second source seems to be more of a plot summary, which does not necessarily prove notability. Other sources seem okay. Spinixster   (chat!)  09:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

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 * Thank you for the response. With three out of the five sources considered "okay", there is sufficient coverage to establish notability. Cunard (talk) 12:23, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I started a cultural impact section in the article. Some of these sources might do well there. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:04, 27 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Forensics on the purported support for the article, provided above by Cunard:
 * 1) Sotirin, Patricia J.; Ellingson, Laura L. (2013). "(Not) Like a Mother: Black and White Maternal Aunts".
 * Exactly as the title promises, this work is about aunts and their maternal role in black and white families. The passages on Aunt Bee are used, as many other characters are used, to drive the points made in the book about the idealized American family and other notions. This is a book, if we must take it down to the plainest of descriptions, about aunts; and not about a specific aunt. In plain terms, every aunt referenced in this book does not acquire the attribute of notability.


 * 1) Beck, Ken; Clark, Jim (2000) [1985]. "Aunt Bee Taylor" in The Andy Griffith Show
 * Is every character in that show notable enough to merit a separate, dedicated Wikipedia article? This book reveals its hand on the cover, where we read that it's The Complete Guide to one of Television's Best Shows. The key word here is "complete." And, as promised, it has chapters dedicated to each and every speaking character that passed in front of the show's cameras. One is on aunt Bee. So, essentially, a directory of characters, enriched with photos and history. Mayors Pike and Stoner get their write up but they dare not wade inside Wikipedia.


 * 1) Kelly, Richard (1981). "Aunt Bee and Opie". The Andy Griffith Show.
 * Another completist's tome. Aunt Bee appears in the sub-chapter "Aunt Bee and Opie", part of the chapter "Developing a Cast". Although the quote appended in the book's citation above appears promising, in reality it offers just a tad more than a TV Guide's presentation of a show's characters. This, too, is a directory. What it certainly is not is something dedicated, to any extent, to our contested, beloved aunt.


 * 1) Beck, Ken; Clark, Jim (1991). Aunt Bee's Mayberry Cookbook.
 * A commercial, tie-in cook book using the character's name to attract buyers. Nothing more. We've had soundtracks and other marketing offerings tied to the show. None of them, per se, rendered notable the character they used. Andy wore roper boots; we have a lemma on cowboy boots but not on roper boots, no matter how many times these boots got a write-up.
 * I'm sorry. I loved that show, and I loved the character, but I'd be amiss in my work here if I were to base my suggestions on emotion or nostalgia. -The Gnome (talk) 11:30, 24 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment: Notability says: "'Significant coverage' addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material." In "(Not) Like a Mother: Black and White Maternal Aunts", Aunt Bee receives extensive analysis on multiple pages. Even though she is not "the main topic of the source material", multiple pages of coverage clearly "addres[s] the topic directly and in detail". This article from The Journal of Popular Culture notes: "The Andy Griffith Show is a nostalgic American popular cultural masterpiece valid for all time. Consistently ranked in the top ten television shows (and number one during its last season), The Andy Griffith Show ran on CBS from October 3, 1960, through the end of the 1967-68 season. It has had perpetual mass appeal in syndication, and since its debut, it has never been off the air. Learning its origins, revealing some behind-the-scenes aspects, and reviewing many of the episodes have led to the identification of specific factors that have contributed to the show's phenomenal success and endurance." Owing to its "perpetual mass appeal in syndication" and legacy, many books from academic publishers have covered the show in substantial detail. There is no support in policy to discount the coverage in academic books for being too detailed. The Andy Griffith Show's last new episode aired in 1968. The Andy Griffith Show Book: From Miracle Salve to Kerosene Cucumbers: the Complete Guide to One of Television's Best-loved Shows was first published 17 years later in 1985. Very few television shows receive this level of coverage 17 years after they have finished airing. Very few television characters have numerous pages in multiple books about them. Cunard (talk) 12:23, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, the show might be notable -and this one certainly is- but its notability does not pass on to every character independently. I guess we differ on what stand-alone lemmas need keeping and what not. Take care. -The Gnome (talk) 09:05, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –&#8239;Joe (talk) 13:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Based on sources above. I agree that GNG does not say Aunt Bee would need to be the main topic of a scholarly work (meaning a book written entirely about her character). A discussion of Aunt Bee within a book about fictional aunts is fine for GNG, and a discussion about Aunt Bee within an independent and secondary book about the show (which they do appear to be) is also fine. Others may have a stricter interpretation of GNG, but to me we are well within the bounds of acceptability for an article. Rhino131 (talk) 12:58, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Greetings. Doesn't that line of argument make practically every character that appeared on the Andy Griffith Show notable enough to merit their own, stand-alone article? As Cunard wrote, there's a ton of written material about the show out there. -The Gnome (talk) 09:05, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It depends of the level of scholarly analysis. A simple mention that a certain character appeared in a certain episode is not Significant Coverage. But the above clearly shows there is more written about this particular character. The fact that a lot of books have been written on this show means there are lots of potential reliable sources out there, which are what we use to determine notability in articles. We go by what the sources say. Rhino131 (talk) 12:54, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep. Meets WP:GNG per above sources. Allow me a few words.
 * What's important in each and every case is that it be possible for someone to write encyclopedia article about the topic. The never-to-be-reached ideal is for every article to reach "Good Article" status. But note that Good Articles have no strict length requirement (WP:GACR), they merely need to cover the notability of the subject in appropriate breadth.
 * It's not unlikely that most main or recurring characters on The Andy Griffith Show are individually notable given the place that show occupies in the American television canon and the syndication and coverage it's received over the past 80 years.
 * &mdash;siro&chi;o 08:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Just notifying you that your signature didn't render correctly. Spinixster   (chat!)  08:38, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, added date. &mdash;siro&chi;o 08:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep I was able to find one full-text source that I used to add a small cultural impact section to the article. It could definitely use expansion. I also found a few hits in Google Scholar: Aunt Bee as Mom, Stepmom, or Grandmom? This one uses Aunt Bee as an example to explore the legal status of non-parent caregivers. She seems to feature in this book as well: Where the Aunts Are: Family, Feminism, and Kinship in Popular Culture Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:57, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm listing these other sources here not necessarily for use in the article (which needs more sourcing) but as examples of the ubiquity of this character in the culture: Culture Wars, When Do I Get to Be? Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:10, 27 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.