Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ava Addams (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. This is clearly an acutely controversial topic. There's clear arguments on both sides of the debate, and there's differing interpretations of the policy in the area, particularly in terms of WP:PORNBIO. There's no sign of any consensus at this moment in time. Given the high levels of participation already, and the palpable split between editors, I have zero confidence that relisting this for another seven days would lead to any sort of consensus. As such, I am closing this as a no consensus. I hope this detailed closure explains my decision. KaisaL (talk) 00:18, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Ava Addams
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails PORNBIO & GNG, This was created by an editor who went on a mass article creation, It's twice been CSD'd under G4 however one editor for some reason disagrees so renominating again!. – Davey 2010 Talk 13:50, 26 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Pinging everyone in the last discussion -, , , , , . – Davey 2010 Talk 13:53, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Passes WP:PORNBIO#1 with NightMoves Best Cougar/MILF Performer award, which is well-known/significant and not scene-related/ensemble. In 2002, the St. Petersburg Times noted that the NightMoves Awards were "the third largest in the porn industry". It is also the porn industry's third longest running awards show. Most participants at Articles for deletion/Keri Sable, a NightMoves recipient, voted to keep the article. Three of the keep votes regarded her NightMoves win as a reason (one by me, the others "per Rebecca1990"). Most votes in the first Ava Addams AfD were to keep the article, obviously because of her MILF Performer of the Year nominations, the only non-scene-related/ensemble ones she had. Ava Addams's article was only deleted in the second discussion because she had no wins, not because of the award category itself. Nominations were removed from PORNBIO in the time period between both AfD's, and it was only deleted in the second for not having a win, not because there were any problems with the award category. Also, the above pinging of cherry-picked users (only delete voters and only second AfD participants) seems like Canvassing. Rebecca1990 (talk) 15:39, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * - Nope no cherry picking, First off I apologize for not pinging you - I went through every name pasting them above but somehow missed yours (certainly wasn't intentional), Secondly as a rule I only ping the previous discussion but no further and seeing as it was a 2013 discussion I have no idea if a few have retired etc etc), Thanks, – Davey 2010 Talk 16:20, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. GSS  (talk) 15:57, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. GSS  (talk) 15:57, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:28, 26 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Weak keep To me, there's no question that Addams doesn't satisfy the GNG. I agree with Rebecca1990 that the NightMoves Awards are "well-known and significant industry awards" per prong 1 of PORNBIO, but I'm not convinced that "Best Cougar/MILF Performer", the award Addams won, is a "well-known and significant industry award". Looking at the list of 2015 NightMoves Award winners, though, I see that it's listed fourth—after Best Female Performer, Best Male Performer, and Best New Starlet—so obviously somebody thinks it's a significant award. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:02, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, pinging the two editors who commented at the first AfD who have not already been summoned: Spartaz and Erpert. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:02, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. This discussion pretty much establishes that the NightMoves Award is a well-known award; and Ms. Addams won it. (I also agree with Rebecca that this is borderline canvassing.)  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 00:57, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
 * - Pinging a previous AFD isn't canvassing and I would advise you to read WP:CANVASSING before making such moronic comments. – Davey 2010 Talk 02:03, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
 * "Moronic comments"? I would urge you to read WP:NPA.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 02:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete does not pass the notability requirements for pornographic actors. The awards are not of a level to confer notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:01, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete: Per JPL.  Not notable.   Montanabw (talk)  07:19, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - A GNG fail; I also regard the PORNBIO inclusion parameters to be fairly ridiculous — if we put porn actors through the same notability hoops that we put non-porn actors, that would pare away 97.998% of this sort of non-encyclopedic, lecherously intended fanboy bullshit. That said: as porn bios go this is not the worst in terms of sourcing and actual biographic content. So kudos for that, I guess. Carrite (talk) 21:31, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete as failing GNG, and IAR for the rest of it... Carrite (talk) 21:31, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Carrite's delete vote is basically an acknowledgment that this passes PORNBIO. Only reason he voted delete is because he disagrees with the PORNBIO guideline criteria. No logical reason here to "IAR" (WP:Ignore all rules), since keeping this article in no way prevents us from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, in fact, it does the opposite due to the likelihood that Addams will also win an AVN/XBIZ/XRCO non-scene/ensemble award in the future, resulting in the eventual recreation of the article anyways. Like I've said before, "considering NightMoves well-known/significant under PORNBIO will more often lead to EARLIER creation of articles than ADDITIONAL creation of articles. A lot of porn stars/directors received the first award of their careers from NightMoves. Devon won NM Best Actress in 2003 and did not win anything else until her AVN HoF induction in 2010, Pat Myne won NM Best Director in 2004 and did not win anything else until his AVN HoF induction in 2011, and Eric Masterson won NM Best Actor in 2005 and did not win anything else until his AVN HoF induction in 2014" and "now that the AVN and XBIZ awards have taken place, four people (Kleio Valentien, Ryan Driller, Jessy Dubai, Kendra Sunderland) whose only non-scene/ensemble award wins prior to AVN/XBIZ 2016 were from NightMoves, have now won either an AVN or XBIZ non-scene/ensemble award. Accepting NightMoves Awards as passing PORNBIO only gave them notability under that guideline three months earlier than it would have otherwise." Also, last week's XRCO show awarded Ryan Conner with her only other non-scene/ensemble award besides her 2001 NightMoves win. Last year, it was Anikka Albrite, Carter Cruise, Maddy O'Reilly, Nikki Benz, and Prinzzess won AVN/XBIZ/XRCO non-scene/ensemble awards with their only previous non-scene/ensemble wins being from NightMoves. All five of those WP articles were created prior to AVN/XBIZ/XRCO 2015, and it would have been a complete waste of time to delete them just to recreate them again, especially when they already met PORNBIO with their NightMoves wins. Rebecca1990 (talk) 16:01, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete. GNG and PORNBIO failure. The most significant change since the last AfD is the NightMoves win, which does not establish notability per PORNBIO. Citing a majority of votes in the Keri Sable debate, which closed as no consensus, does not make a convincing argument. • Gene93k (talk) 19:16, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keri Sable's AfD wasn't the only evidence for NightMoves's notability I provided. I also cited a Pulitzer Prize-winning newspaper's description of the NightMoves Awards as "the third largest in the porn industry" and the fact that it's the porn industry's third longest running awards show as evidence for notability. Since your vote, I've also provided evidence that there are porn awards with less coverage that aren't as longevous as NightMoves which have consensus among WP users to include in PORNBIO. Rebecca1990 (talk) 16:14, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete as not passing WP:GNG with a scarcity of non-porn coverage and only a minor award for PornBio Atlantic306 (talk) 22:01, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment All delete votes above fail to explain how NightMoves isn't notable. A mainstream media outlet described NightMoves as the porn industry's third largest awards ceremony in 2002, a year in which at least four other porn award shows took place, (AVN, XRCO, Venus, and NINFA), which, by consensus, meet PORNBIO. If AVN, XRCO, Venus, and NINFA are all well-known/significant under PORNBIO, then logically, so is NightMoves, since it's bigger than two of them. The FAME Awards continue to be accepted as well-known/significant under PORNBIO (which I do agree with), so it makes no sense to exclude NightMoves when it has much more media coverage than FAME. FAME is also defunct and lasted only 5 years while NightMoves is the porn industry's third longest running awards show (most recent ceremony was the 23rd annual one) and still taking place. NightMoves has clearly surpassed our minimum standards for being well-known/significant under PORNBIO. Rebecca1990 (talk) 14:57, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - passes WP:PORNBIO#1 - NightMoves Best Cougar/MILF Performer award. Subtropical -man   talk  (en-2)  21:38, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Just another run-of-the-mill porn actor. The notion that just because Night Moves may possibly be notable, that therefore every winner of an obscure industry insider backscratching Cougar/MILF award is also notable is just bizarre. Weekly World News is notable, after all, but that does not confer notability on every monkey boy, bat human and alien abductee that they write up. We really need to tighten up our porn "star" notability standards, and reject promotional "biographies" written by obsessed editors with a conflict of interest. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  07:07, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - passes WP:PORNBIO#1 - NightMoves Best Cougar/MILF Performer award. She satisfies the notability criteria. Plus NightMoves isn't an obscure award. I also notice that once more some users are clearly trying to rewrite/tighten the agreed WP:PORNBIO notability rules here. -- fdewaele, 3 July 2016, 11:51.
 * Keep Satisfies WP:N.  WP:N is a measure of whether a topic has attracted the attention of the world at large over a period of time, and the evidence shows that this topic has attracted the attention of the world at large over a period of time.  Unscintillating (talk) 12:50, 3 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.