Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ava Bahram (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Black Kite (talk) 20:01, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Ava Bahram
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

A previous article on this singer was deleted two months ago, after a robust discussion of the true meaning of reliable sources and the notability requirements for musicians, with some misunderstandings from supporters. The article was then recreated with an attempt at additional sources, by the same user who created the last one, and this person continues to miss the significance of the WP guidelines. The new addition this time is news about a petition that she signed, but in the Persian-language sources used as verification, she is only listed briefly among many other signers. Otherwise this version of the article is dependent on typical industry listings with no verification for statements on her popularity and influence. Nothing else can be found under either the Persian or English spellings of her name beyond what was in the previous version. Salting may also be necessary. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 16:22, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * See also, indicting that User:Gimbouri created both versions of the article and ignored the previous community decision. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 16:28, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 16:22, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 16:22, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 16:22, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Gimbouri (talk) 18:20, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Undelete Hello, Ava Bahram is famous in the Iranian community inside and outside the country. Unfortunately, female artists in Iran after the Islamic Revolution are censored in newspapers, magazines and other domestic media due to censorship and restrictions imposed by the laws of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and for this reason they emigrate from Iran. And their only media is satellite TV channels and social media outside of Iran. Also 3 of Ava Bahram's songs with the letters "Roozhaye Tanhaei", "Agooshe To" and "Gol ya Pooch" have been broadcasted in the Gem TV channels in the 3 years and got a megahit. please Attention considering that by Islamic laws it is forbidden for female singers to broadcast their voices on the national television of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and in this regard their songs have been broadcasted on Gem TV channels and others Persian-language satellite TV channels, such as PMC, Radio Javan, and others. so there are good reasons. I researched this in the case of other Iranian female singer who also have an article. There are two reputable sources, one is the interview and performance of Ava Bahram on BBC TV and the other is the interview and live performance of Ava Bahram on Manoto TV. Of course, I tried to insert the link of websites for you here, but unfortunately it was not possible, But with the same titles are available in YouTube . Because she has migrated outside of Iran due to the ban on women's singing in the Islamic Republic of Iran, she is merely the only sources available on radio and television and reputable websites outside of Iran to cover their activities.
 * Repeat from Previous Deletion Discussion - There have been several recent AfDs for Iranian entertainers (musicians, models, etc.) in which supporters are making the argument that we see here. Per that argument, the entertainers have no media coverage in their home country because of government repression, and therefore the entertainers are little-known in the rest of the world too. I have no doubt that this is happening and it is certainly unfortunate, but that is a problem that is much bigger than Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is not equipped to fix it. The larger problem could be discussed at Censorship in Iran, among other possibilities, but helping to promote unlucky entertainers is not one of Wikipedia's functions. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520</b> (Talk&#124;Contribs) 00:54, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with you. I am glad that you are so in control of the existing rules and restrictions for artists and journalists in Iran.  Unfortunately, these restrictions are especially for Iranian female singers because the voice of women is forbidden in Islam. The point of my argument is that in this particular case, Wikipedia policies and guidelines should not be strict in order to gain the recognition of Iranian female artists.Gimbouri (talk) 17:02, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You have requested a change to Wikipedia policy, which must take place somewhere else. This discussion is about the notability of Ava Bahram, and therefore her eligibility for Wikipedia, which still has not been demonstrated by you or anyone else. For larger policy changes, see Policies and guidelines. --- <b style="color: DarkOrchid"> DOOMSDAYER 520</b> (Talk&#124;Contribs) 21:42, 10 August 2020 (UTC)


 * keep she is very famous in the Iranian music community. We have seen many TV programs of her live performances and interviews. She has a special style among Iranian singers.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pocoyo4858 (talk • contribs) 14:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment to Admins - To any admin reading this, please note that all of the keep votes in this and the previous AfD have said little beyond claiming that the singer is famous, without acknowledgement of the Wikipedia policies cited by the nominators and other voters. Also, the two other users in this AfD have done little else in Wikipedia beyond adding to Ava Bahram's article or commenting on her AfDs. --- <b style="color: DarkOrchid"> DOOMSDAYER 520</b> (Talk&#124;Contribs) 17:06, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * comment please look at the article No: 11 and 12 of WP:MUSICBIO, because of megahit song by name Roozhaye Tanhaei, interviews and live performances in severals TV she has notability by Wikipedia's policies Thanks.Pocoyo4858 (talk) 10:08, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * keep Considering the large number of broadcasts of song  Roozhaye Tanhaei(the title track of the Turkish serial Fatmagül'ün Suçu Ne?), on the TV channels of the largest Persian-language television network (gem TV), it can be said that Ava Bahram's public fame is achieved and it's In accordance with policies and guidelines (articles No: 11 and 12 of WP:MUSICBIO). Gimbouri (talk) 21:45, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Gimbouri has now voted twice, which is not allowed; that user and Pocoyo4858 have made claims of notability with no evidence except for claiming that they saw the singer on TV. Both made the exact same arguments multiple times with the exact same lack of evidence in the first AfD for this singer. Both are just pointing at policies. I have nothing against Ava Bahram and wish her luck, but she doesn't get into Wikipedia because someone thinks she's unlucky. --- <b style="color: DarkOrchid"> DOOMSDAYER 520</b> (Talk&#124;Contribs) 14:00, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yours sincerely, You claim that Ava Bahram is not well known, but here the issue of Ava Bahram's reputation is evaluated solely on the basis of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I think this is not a question of the number of votes, but a place for analysis and consultation at all. Unfortunately, a great artist like Ava Bahram has somehow fallen victim to a dictatorial regime and has been forced to emigrate due to censorship and a ban on expressing her art. My information about her knowledge of reading the information available from her is limited to existing websites and especially listening to her works of art. I wish you were familiar with the Persian language and enjoyed their meaningful, rich and artistic songs. I have seen many comments on social media that a large number of frustrated and depressed Persian-speaking women and youth have come to life hopefully after hearing Ava Bahram's songs. This is not my personal opinion. It may be meaningless for you, who probably do not live in the Third World and have not experienced the psychological pressures of dictatorial regimes. Regards Gimbouri (talk) 21:11, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I really wish someone else would help me stand up for all of English Wikipedia here. Final Comment: The article's supporter has resorted to begging for sympathy, yet another ploy that is not supported by Wikipedia policy. Perhaps someone will notice. --- <b style="color: DarkOrchid"> DOOMSDAYER 520</b> (Talk&#124;Contribs) 15:28, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * comment to admins As a Wikipedia editor, I first and foremost believe in Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and I am not willing to violate my beliefs just by submitting an article. In all my comments in defense of Ava Bahram's article, I link my reasons to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. In this particular article, for the information of users and administrators, I must mention the limitations that I had during the collection of article information. I have said very clearly and simply that in the society under study, there were restrictions such as information and news censorship compulsorily for the news support of Ava Bahram and female artists in general. Certainly where, despite the dictatorship, the prohibition of women singing, and censorship, all of which have led to the emigration of the subject matter from the homeland, one has to be a little more flexible in adapting resources to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. And this demand should not be called as begging the author of the article. Before emigrating, Ava Bahram sent a critical and open letter to the President of the Islamic Republic of Iran asking for the government's support for her activities, but unfortunately, instead of supporting her, she was summoned to court for her singing and music skills and in accordance with Islamic law. She has been convicted and harassed. Regards Gimbouri (talk) 18:01, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete I feel very sorry for her but unfortunately she is (still) not notable for Wikipedia. The policy of Wikipedia is to have reliable, secondary sources which are absent here. I also did a Google search and couldn't find anything besides the standard social media pages, streaming service entries, lyrics sites, retail sites and blogs. None of them establish any notability. I don't read or speak Persian but I also did a Google search with her native name and the sources were basically the same except in Iranian/Persian. And the users above (with the exception of Doomsdayer of course) did little more than commenting on this singer's AFD and editing her article. These users (I actually have a suspicion that "these users" are just one user using sockpuppets which is not allowed on Wikipedia - so for that reason I am going to address him as just "user"). So, this user has tried to convince the participants of this (and the previous) AfD about the importance of Ava Bahram, stating stuff like "she is very popular in Iran" and "she has a megahit" but he did not provide any sources to these statements. Without reliable sources, there is no WP article. Streaming service links, social media pages, lyrics sites, blogs and databases are not reliable. I feel very sorry about the fact that she is oppressed in Iran, that is horrible, but as of now she is not notable for WP inclusion. GhostDestroyer100 (talk) 16:02, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete GhostDestroyer100 makes an excellent case for why. I'd also add that trying to give her a notability pass because she comes from Iran and they have strict controls on the media etc etc etc "blah blah blah or whatever" is sort of the soft bigotry of low exceptions. There's plenty of articles about notability people from Iran. Including women. So, she shouldn't get a special pass simply because of where she comes from. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:22, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you did not read the article correctly and wrote something based solely on the opinions of others.Gimbouri (talk) 18:44, 19 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete per Doomsdayer520 and Adamant1. Specifically, biographies of living people have to be well researched and sourced, and this article just doesn't cut it. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  16:21, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * about your comment also the same I'm sure you did not read the article correctly and wrote something based solely on the opinions of others. Gimbouri (talk) 18:45, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I did. To show I have, I have tagged a contentious claim in the article with a tag. Again, WP:BLPSOURCES says that this information should not be tagged, it should be removed. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  20:22, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, Ava Bahram has the conditions to have an article, and I tried to register her name in Wikipedia on the birthday of this great and oppressed Iranian artist. But apparently for some users, this recognition has not been achieved. Unfortunately for some great artists, this is becoming a way to be known later in life. There have been many people in history who have been known for years after their lives.Gimbouri (talk) 07:59, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete: Just doesn't meet the GNG or WP:BIO. To quote myself from a 2010 AfD, "There is a school of thought circulating around Wikipedia that if there is some putative excuse for reliable sources not to be found on a particular subject, the requirements of WP:V, WP:RS, WP:GNG and/or WP:BIO are suspended. This curious notion has no basis in policy or guideline." The only acceptable response to the suggestion that this article lacks adequate sourcing because the lives of Iranian women are out of the public eye is "Then a Wikipedia article on her cannot be sustained."   Ravenswing      17:04, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.