Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Avanhard (Vorokhta)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. postdlf (talk) 16:37, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Avanhard (Vorokhta)

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After a complaint on WP:ANI, I started arguing with the creator of the article, User:Aleksandr Grigoryev, about the promotional external links he was adding, but upon looking more closely at the article, I think it's pure promotion altogether, and should be deleted per WP:NOTADVERTISING. Neither of the two references offered are in a language I can read, but they certainly look commercial to me. Bishonen &#124; talk 17:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per Gibraltarpedia. In fact, someone needs to get this to DYK, quick! More seriously, whether this is promotional or not (personally it looks to me more like just some undue enthusiasm) the subject of the article is notable. Certainly by the standards that have been laid by the Gibraltar folks. Volunteer Marek 18:03, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Please go by policy rather than the fact that other crap exists. Bishonen &#124; talk 18:19, 14 August 2013 (UTC).
 * Honestly, most of it could probably be merged into the Vorokhta article but I also want to see what Aleksandr can do with it. I think the "Avanhard" itself was a training camp for Soviet Olympic athletes so that's some potential notability right there. My limited knowledge of Ukrainian and Russian and difficulties with searching in Cyrillic mean that's about all I can find at this point. (I recognize the OTHERCRAP argument and it's valid. But you KNOW that if the Ukrainian gov started promoting Wikipedians to write about tourist attractions in Ukraine, this'd be kept, people who object would be yelled at, it'd wind up on the front page, etc. So basically we tolerate and enable promotion as long as it's organized and backed, but not when it's some local enthusiast doing it.) Volunteer Marek 18:42, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete - Fails notability. Wiki is no for self-promotion/advertising. Caffeyw (talk) 18:30, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: this is a brand new user 90%+ of whose contributions since March of this year comprise of "Delete" votes in seemingly random AfDs. Also, an early edit such as this makes it pretty clear that this is not a new user. Something sketchy is surely afoot. Volunteer  Marek 23:42, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * So because I did what Wiki suggests, be bold, in one article, I'm now doing something wrong? An article that per discussions needed some help.  Yes I've focused on AfDs, I'd like to contribute in the best way I can.  Right now I have time to be able to sit down and run searches.  I've not had many keeps because most the time, there's already enough of a consensus to keep. It'd be an example of posting, just to post.  Caffeyw (talk) 23:19, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's waht he's saying. I'm not sure what his intent was, but I really don't think that was it. -- Aunva6talk - contribs 01:03, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 18:45, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 18:45, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

The problem occurred with majorly due to the website that promotes hotels. The purpose of me listing was not however to promote. There site does actually list facts about the resort which could not currently can be found on the internet. Here is the translation of the first three paragraphs from the website (once again, please, do not follow price offers presented on the bottom of a page at the website). Sports training base of the Ukrainian athletes "Avanhard" is located in the town of Vorokhta, at the very start of the town on the left side of a road, with the souvenir market, as well as 400 meters from the village center and the railway station, at a distance of 15-30 km there are resorts Bukovel, Yablunytsia, Drahobrat, mount Hoverla and the district center the city-resort Yaremche, at an altitude of 790 m above sea level.

At the sports center in Vorockhta Avanhard is located a year-round operating complex of three ski ramps (in summer on an artificial surface). The complex is a sports-training base of the Ukrainian national team, children's and youth teams. At its base takes place the Ukrainian championship in ski jumps.

Ramps are served by a chairlift 200 meters long, where is also located a training slope for beginners. Next to the hotel building of the sports base Avanhard is located a speedy bugel lift and a ski piste of 500 meters in length. A children's training piste 30m in length. Cost to get to the top at the big lift is 10 hryvnia, for children - 5 hryvnia. Ski piste Vorokhta is operational. The complex has a children's sports school.

Now the user 173.68.110.16, deleted some of the information and wrote "No, I do not want to stay in your hotel." I do not know whether the user was looking to book a vacation for himself or not, but it certainly sounded very strange to me and completely out of the blue as my intentions were not to provide realy any information on vacation spots, but rather to provide info on sports infrastructure in the region. Therefore I also added a follow up link to the Avanhard (sports society). The fact that there are three ski ramps that are seen even from space on the google maps I guess just do not convince a lot of people. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 18:54, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe that it's calles sarcasm, or something along those lines.however, much of the aticle does appear to be an advert, so delete.-- Aunva6talk - contribs 00:02, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * My God! Could it be??? Someone on Wiki actually understands the concept of sarcasm? My faith in humanity has been restored! 173.68.110.16 (talk) 04:28, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * As for "ski ramps being visible from space" - my dear patriotic friend, I can also find the word "Хуй" being painted on some of the locations in Russia, clearly visible on satellite images from Google, but it doesn't mean it is necessary to write an article about that especially if such information was only covered by personal blogs or by private sites using this info to advertise their own services (such as, for example, by a site that sells interior and exterior paint products). Hopefully you'll get what I am trying to say ;-) 173.68.110.16 (talk) 05:36, 15 August 2013 (UTC)


 * In my opinion if it is visible from space and used to be internationally recognized it should be noticed by the wikipedia editors community. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 19:25, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I did some additional edits to the article. However there is almost no information about the sports base in any Anglophone sources. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 19:56, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It's fine to use non-English sources as long as they reliable. Volunteer Marek 20:14, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Working on it. I think the Ski Federation of Ukraine is pretty reliable source. I posted some official government documents identifying Avanhard as a main base for Olympic preparation for more solid verification, but I am afraid if it looks as I am trying to mock anyone. I need sometime though to find more information from sources other than commercial which are way too much. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 20:19, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Please, note that someone before me identified the resort on wikimapia and also used the same website as I did on wikipedia. Just a pointer. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 20:21, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * it can be moved to your userspace until you find sources, I suppose. after all, bishonen reportedly "hates it when they loose their text". -- Aunva6talk - contribs 00:06, 15 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I looked through some other ski resorts articles on wikipedia some of them such as Wintergreen Resort, Ober Gatlinburg, La Pinilla fail notability as they do not provide any other sources, but their own websites. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 20:55, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * nominated under A7. none of them make any claim to notability, as far as I can tell. -- Aunva6talk - contribs 00:02, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * More weirdness . Volunteer Marek 00:15, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Given this exchange it's sorta obvious that the Bish got trolled into this nomination. And yeah, those accounts should be indeffed. Volunteer Marek 00:24, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * All three of Aunva6's CSDs were declined by admin User:DGG. Someone not using his real name (talk) 12:58, 15 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep My original intention was never to delete this article altogether but to merely remove a self-promotional Advertising garbage from third-party commercial sites (which I personally cannot tolerate regardless of an article's topic) and I see it being almost completely removed. I also see more neutral sources being added to it which should help establish its WP:N even further. I believe WP:AfDing this article is somewhat premature and it should be given more time to improve. Just not with unreliable self-promotional spam, blogs or anything like that ;-) 173.68.110.16 (talk) 04:38, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep looks like a notable subject Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:56, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Meh. It feels a little questionable given that there aren't separate articles in either the Ukrainian or Russian Wikipedias (where it's covered in their entries on Vorokhta). But since we have an article for every cobblestone and street sign in Gibraltar, I don't really object to this. We also have a separate article on the Vorokhta railway station, which doesn't have equivalents in the sister Wikipedias. Avangard is mentioned in the Bradt Travel Guides to Ukraine and in Le Petit Futé guide to the same country, so it's probably not that obscure. The phonetic spelling (Avanhard) should probably be fixed to the one used in Western sources (Avangard). Someone not using his real name (talk) 12:33, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Avangard is as phonetic as Avanhard. One is an adaptation of the Russian transliteration of the English vanguard. If we to change it, the article will loose its consistency with the Ukrainian articles that use Romanization. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 19:25, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep, possibly by NPOVing and merging with the Zarosliak into some Tourist and sports infrastructure in Vorokhta or Vorokhta resort area. The village even has a dedicated train from Kyiv, that's how important a resort it is. Both such articles would be notable by subject and scope. Ukrained2012 (talk) 13:12, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - More important than subject and scope are reliable sources to establish encyclopedic notability. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 19:17, 15 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 01:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep. Text that sounds like advertizing could and should be cut down and removed, but the place seems to be just as notable as any other ski resort. Blue Elf (talk) 13:21, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.