Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Avengers (film)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Characters of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Consensus is clearly against keeping this, and so is WP:V as a core policy, given that after 14 days of AfD the article has remained unsourced. What the definitive redirect target should be and whether any (sourceable) content should be merged is up to editors.  Sandstein  13:26, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Avengers (film)

 * – ( View AfD View log )

No single source cited. Lacks WP:GNG  Jen yir e2  05:15, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions.  Jen yir e2  05:15, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions.  Jen yir e2  05:15, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Andrew🐉(talk) 18:15, 13 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment at the moment it has no refs, so technically it is not proven as notable. However, I think this is a silly afd nomination as the Avengers is notable as a film franchise, and this more of a clear up and fix job which will be done before the afd is closed.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 08:46, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 11:49, 13 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep This is a reasonable split from Avengers_(comics)_in_other_media as the latter has a clumsy title and doesn't do justice to this huge topic. The claim that it's not notable is absurd.  Here's a sample source which took about 10 seconds to find. Andrew🐉(talk) 18:11, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Redirect there are obviously sources available. However, this seems like a WP:CFORK of Marvel Cinematic Universe: Phase Two, Marvel Cinematic Universe: Phase Three and other articles.  Avengers_(comics)_in_other_media isn't a great redirect target, but is good enough. power~enwiki ( π,  ν ) 18:25, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * "Marvel Cinematic Universe: Phase Two" is not exactly the common name for this, is it? The source I cited calls its article "The Avengers Franchise", which sounds mucb more plausible.  Anyway, whatever one calls it, it's notable and so deletion is not appropriate.  And it shouldn't be buried under an obscure title either. Andrew🐉(talk) 18:32, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, Marvel Cinematic Universe is as common a name as The Avengers for the film franchise as a whole, and this level of plot detail clearly can't fit in the main MCU article, so it has already been split to a sub-article. I suppose I'm not clear how "The Avengers" franchise differs from the MCU. power~enwiki ( π, ν ) 18:43, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The Avengers is just one of numerous Marvel superhero teams and the MCU covers many others. See List of Marvel Cinematic Universe television series, for example.  And the MCU is growing as it folds in other franchises such as Deadpool.  Trying to cover all this under one heading is not sensible.  We already have plenty of pages and this is just another one.  See WP:NOTPAPER. Andrew🐉(talk) 18:28, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Meh. It definitely needs a new title (this one should redirect to a DAB, as we have The Avengers (1950 film) and The Avengers (1998 film) among other title conflicts) and new content (all of this is the wrong tone for a plot summary, and there's nothing else) but if many people think we need another standalone article I don't see a reason to forbid it. power~enwiki ( π,  ν ) 18:02, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Comment fork argument is rather daft as MCU has been forked already. And if it should be a redirect shouldn't it be The Infinity Saga? As Andrew said, if you type in Avengers film in Google you get The Avengers Film Series.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 19:14, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment. This article needs a significant rewrite to conform to Manual of Style/Writing about fiction, as it is written almost entirely from an in-universe perspective. At this point, my inclination would be to recommend "delete", although I suspect that the article may be improved before this AfD ends so I will refrain from recommending that now. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 22:41, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. Pure unreferenced WP:FANCRUFT and/or fork of Avengers (comics). Then this could be redirected to The Avengers which is what most people would expect to find following this redirect. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:35, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The page being recommended for a redirect is a disambiguation page! Davidstewartharvey (talk) 17:28, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * In that case, we could redirect to The Avengers (2012 film) which would be consistent with the current title, Avengers (film). --Metropolitan90 (talk) 20:02, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * , Yes, that's the target I meant. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:49, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I can understand that you are unhappy with the current status of the article, but please consider that there are secondary source out there. We recently had a discussion about what amounts to analysis. Maybe you will like Déjà New in Joss Whedon's Marvel's The Avengers which has sentences like "Concomitant with the invalidation of the traditional, wholly constituted superhero are the conflictual dynamics and resultant intersubjective interpellation of the Avengers team." Daranios (talk) 15:55, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 * , Fair enough, but I simply don't see why we need two articles about The Avengers. All of this can be discussed in Avengers (comics). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 01:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * In contrast to the other suggested targets, Avengers (comics) would make sense. But I think by now more people will have experienced the Movie version of the Avengers than the original comics version, and the movie version is discussed independently by secondary sources. So I see no reason not to apply WP:GNG here, as has been done by the nominator. And I think the subject on its own fullfils that. I also see no reason to WP:TNT the current version. It is seriously lacking, but it does provide decent if too long plot-summary, which would be a relevant part of an article improved by editing. Daranios (talk) 11:46, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * , Which sources discuss this entity, in the movie-only context, in-depth? I didn't see anything but a plot summary/passing mentions in the sources presented. If I missed something, could you tell me which page contains an analysis-like discussion, and how long is it? Quotations would be greatly appreciated. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 01:47, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * So you were willing to endorse deletion when there was no indication that the nominator did any WP:BEFORE whatsoever as would be part of the suggested AfD process, but you require proof for keeping? That seems... assymetrical. I really would have preferred to spend that time to work on improving articles discussed as requiring improvement earlier, but I'll get back to you if this discussion stays open long enough.
 * Let's start with Avengers Assemble! Critical Perspectives on the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I can only see the preview chapters. Those mostly analyze individual members of the Avengers, including statements like "the new millenial incarnations of these characters are immersed in the geopolitical climate of the post-9/11 decades", "The bodies of Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Thor, Peter Quill and Captain America are richly symbolic significatory systems pregnant with meaning and association just as Wayne's and Stallone's were to the discourse of their own respective eras." and their interaction: "In the MCU these changes are seen most clearly in the effectively drawn contrast between Tony Stark's new millenial cynicism and Cap's 'old-fashioned' ideals when they are first paired onscreen in The Avengers... Both men, even with their differences, can be read as a concerted attempt to reclaim American national identity in the wake of 9/11...through the regenerative powers of violence which Richard Slotkin classified as the definitve 'structuring metaphor of the American experience'" etc.
 * I assume but cannot prove that there is a lot more in the other chapters. My assumption is based on: It has the Avengers and Critical perpectives... in the title. That claim is supported by the flyer at academia.edu (first hit in this search, don't know how to link that properly, for what that's worth, and this short review in the Journal of American Studies, which also tells us that the book brings "a level of depth to their deployment that establishes many of McSweeney's analyses (particularly those centring on various Iron Man and Hulk appearances, and on Captain America: Civil War (2016)) as fresh and important". The table of contents tells us what the book does critical analysis of (among others): Iron Man, Captain America, the tandem Thor/Hulk, ethical questions raised for the characters in The Avengers and Avengers: Age of Ultron.
 * Then "Déjà New in Joss Whedon's Marvel's The Avengers": What about the sentence I have alreay quoted? I don't completely understand it, maybe you can explain it, but it sure does not sound like plot-summary to me. Daranios (talk) 17:18, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * And there would be more to be said and searched for, but I am happy to spend time constructively elsewhere. Daranios (talk) 12:31, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * , Considering that nothing in the current article goes outside plot summary fancruft, I still see no reason to save the current article. You found some content that could be used to expand the article on Avengers. The difference between comic variant(s) and movie one(s) seems superficial and I am still not convinced we need to have separate articles on them. Expand the comic one, and per WP:SUMMARY, when (or if) the discussion of the movie group gets too long then it can be split away. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 01:40, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I can understand that position but I don't share it. Most articles start imperfectly. Throwing out the work already done to have a better intermediate state prevents having an imperfect article for a long time. But it also puts the hurdle for having a decent article at any point much higher. So I am curious again how the decision will be in this case. Daranios (talk) 12:31, 19 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep Per Andrew Davidson. The article currently is obviously not up to par, but I would be very surprised if there would not be enough secondary sources about the subject to change that into a decent article. Has a WP:BEFORE search actually been done? Simply clicking the suggested Google Scholar link leads to e.g. Avengers Assemble! Critical Perspectives on the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
 * The WP:CFORK and redirect arguments all have one flaw: None of the targets matches the subject. The fictional Avengers team has featured in four films now, with other films providing a bit of support for the topic. So The Avengers (2012 film) is obviously to narrow, Marvel Cinematic Universe and The Infinity Saga are too broad; Marvel Cinematic Universe: Phase One, Two, Three are both, each containing one or two films about the Avengers but also many others. Daranios (talk) 12:10, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * A second source going into more analytical detail on the subject would be this freely available paper: Déjà New in Joss Whedon's Marvel's The Avengers. It focuses on the presentation of the Avengers in first movie, but I think togethere these two sources should already fulfull WP:GNG. Daranios (talk) 15:55, 16 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Marvel Cinematic Universe which could easily be renamed "The Avengers related films". The Infinity Saga would be acceptable too. The issue is that this topic is already covered at other articles making this a WP:CONTENTFORK. To the extent this features any unique content it's almost entirely primary sources and plot summary, which is something that Wikipedia articles are WP:NOT. We don't create endless content forks of unsourced/primary sourced material when a summary at the parent article will do. Shooterwalker (talk) 22:17, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * But is that not looking at the current state of the article only? Avengers Assemble! Critical Perspectives on the Marvel Cinematic Universe is an entire book dedicated to critical analysis, with a significant portion of that about the Avengers. Marvel Cinematic Universe is already a large article and contains, as far as I have seen, almost no plot summary. So if this article, was overhauled to be a balanced account of plot-summary and critical analysis, based on such sources as the mentioned one, of the fictional team, it would still not be a WP:CONTENTFORK with Marvel Cinematic Universe as it is now. If we started plot-summary + analysis section for the individual characters/teams within Marvel Cinematic Universe, I think that would blow it to unwieldy size. Daranios (talk) 10:59, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep per the sources provided by Daranios, which resolves the nominator's complaint that the article is wholly uncited, as well as the reasoning they gave. Haleth (talk) 17:25, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Characters_of_the_Marvel_Cinematic_Universe is a better redirect target than the ones I've seen (or have) proposed. power~enwiki ( π, ν ) 01:56, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment FYI, the page Avengers (Marvel Cinematic Universe) currently redirects to Characters of the Marvel Cinematic Universe § Avengers, which would be a far more appropriate title for this article should this article be kept. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:01, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   13:21, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. After a week at AfD, no sources have been added to this article, nor has it been improved to conform to Manual of Style/Writing about fiction. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 16:35, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * But AfD is not clean-up, that issues have not been dealt with within the time of a deletion discussion is discussed as an argument to avoid. In my opinion it has been shown that secondary sources exist which can be used to solve the issues the article has at the moment. Daranios (talk) 08:10, 22 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Characters_of_the_Marvel_Cinematic_Universe - Regardless of the sources or the current state of the article, the topic is likely never going to be anything but a unnecessary content fork for already existing articles. Even if some users think it could be retooled into a useful article, the current article should not remain in the encyclopedia's main space until then, as it is nothing but completely unsourced, in-universe plot summaries of a number of movies that already have their own articles. And unsourced material like this simply cannot be justified to remain as an article. Until an actual proper article can be developed, this should either be moved back into draft space or, more usefully, used as a redirect to the proper current article.  Rorshacma (talk) 17:47, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Redirect as this has already been covered in a main article plus a few more. Clear WP:CONTENTFORK. Archrogue (talk) 19:35, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Redirect, preferably to The Avengers (2012 film), per WP:TNT. As it stands there is absolutely nothing worth saving in this article, which is just poorly written plot summary and fancruft. If another editor wants to re-attempt the article and write it in an encyclopedic style, they are more than welcome to.  Satellizer el Bridget (Talk)  23:21, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment The content of this article should merged with Draft: Avengers (Marvel Cinematic Universe). InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:31, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Any valuable content should be merged into Draft:Avengers (Marvel Cinematic Universe) and the page redirected to The Avengers (2012 film).★Trekker (talk) 08:33, 4 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.