Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Avery Watts


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. I am discounting the single purpose accounts (one of which has faked a user signature), and am giving more weight to the opinions of established editors.  Sandstein  08:27, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Avery Watts

 * – ( View AfD View log )

no real notability shown for this puff piece. award is not major. lacks coverage in independent reliable sources. there is a lot of references provided but there is a lack of good ones. a mix of youtube, PR, passing mentions, shop. nothing satisfying wp:music. duffbeerforme (talk) 05:47, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 16:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Delete had this on my watchlist a while ago but have gone seriously off-wiki lately, seriously needs to go, it is just a rather vain list of self-aggrandizing twaddle (see Personal Life section for example), unsupported by serious references and contains incredible lists of equipment plugging and so on. Pull the plug!  Captain Screebo Parley! 10:20, 4 December 2011 (UT)
 * I'm a little unclear as to why this article is slated for deletion. Avery Watts may not be a huge name in music, but it looks to me like he's notable (I also admit a little bias being a fan). For example, after a little bit of Googling I found that his music is in this NFL reel: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d82339b4d/Week-6-top-plays, he was interviewed on ESPN: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX6uxsXIZaY. I've seen less notable artists in Wiki, so I find this move a little baffling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Auciker (talk • contribs) 07:04, 10 December 2011 (UTC) I did a little more digging, and I reall think this article should not be deleted, as I haven't seen much of a case. As far as the criteria for wp:music goes, he satisfies items 4 (The Examiner did a review of his national tour), 10 (NFL, NBA - Only 2nd Artist ever to play half-time at the Rose Garden Arena) and 12 (ESPN On Field Interview). He's also in AllMusic and BMI Repoitoire, both of which are resources that wp:music recommends
 * 4, where is this coverage? 10 needs more than just a guest spot link that, 12 these are not "a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment?" duffbeerforme (talk) 05:46, 17 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 02:09, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

 To reinforce the above, Avery Watts's music has been streamed nearly 53 million times via his myspace.com page. His YouTube Channel has over 1.6 million channel views. Millions views/listens have to bolster the claim of "notability". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.232.148 (talk) 04:15, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep. Article looks poor (as noted above), but I think he appears just about notable enough to pass WP:MUSICBIO. --Legis (talk - contribs) 03:44, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In what way does he pass wp:musicbio? duffbeerforme (talk) 05:43, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Addendum: calling all experienced editors please give this a look in, I have just severely stubbed the article as almost none of the sources were reliable and/or contained the purported information referred to in the article: for example, deleted YouTube video (interview), NFL scoreboard from Yahoo! to prove Avery played at half-time! yes, for real, and so on. Other sources included OurSports Central which is "fan-driven and relies on our contributors for material" (non RS) and another site intriguingly titled Newswire PR Today: news distribution network with the tiniest mention of AW on a page in the "Premium/Advertising" section.
 * Please contribute so that we can get this AfD'd, self-confessed fans (see above) have added in a lot of junk lately that is totally not supported by references/reliable sources, I have Googled and four pages deep there is nothing that resembles a reliable source, it's all YouTube, Wikipedia (obviously), LinkedIn, Wordpress, Avery's blog and so on.
 * Just to reiterate Strong Delete  Captain Screebo Parley! 11:02, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, let's see. His band (not him, just the band, but then the band is named "Avery Watts") had a record on a bluelinked label (LS Records). Just one, and WP:MUSICBIO asks for two, and on a major or major-indy label. LS Records, bluelink or no, does not seem to meet that criteria ("best-known for bringing [the label founder's] wife... to fame in the late 70s... n the past twenty years, LS has released over a dozen compilation albums of [founder's wife's] hits, and some Gospel and country music covers" (why is this label even bluelinked?)). And there is nothing about this person in the press, zero. No interviews, magazine articles, or reviews (one review, on a website). He thus does not meet WP:GNG nor WP:MUSICBIO, it seems.


 * On the other hand... there are some claims that if true are interesting. I don't know if they're true and they may well not be. One is that, somewhere, sometime, CBS called him the (or a) "New Face of Rock n Roll" (there are many instances in Google but all verbatim mirrors of the string). It's possible some CBS affiliate somewhere made that statement, but I can't find it, and without knowing the context I am disregarding it even if true which is dubious. The other is, his Allmusic page says "[his music has been] picked up for numerous sports soundtracks, with ESPN, Fox Sports, and all the major U.S. networks using it for commercials and pre-game coverage". A similar claim, expanded and much mirrored, can be seen here: "Watts’ music can be heard in Major Motion Picture Soundtracks, video games, on main stream television networks and in pop culture media. Partnered with Fox Sports, ESPN, NBC, ABC and CBS, his music can be heard on TV via the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, NASCAR, Formula 1 Racing, X-Games, AST DEW Tour, the Olympics...." I think these are mirrors of a press release and don't give it any creedance. But there might be a grain of truth here.


 * But then lookie here. Watts won "Best Rock" (whatever that means) at the 2009 Hollywood Media in Music awards. But the Hollywood Media in Music awards are not themselves notable, it seems. But neither are they held in some guy's basement; they seem to be able to afford a nice website and to rent the Kodak Theatre (where the Oscars are also held) for their party, and entice Smokey Robinson to show up. So they're not nothing. (On the other hand, their "celebrity" co-hosts this year were Adam Gaynor and Suzan Brittan and their band lineup -- Sonic Ashtanga, Vital, Ruby Summer, SJ, Queen Caveat and Sledge Grits -- are all redlinked. So let's not get carried away.)


 * Meh. Probably not really notable. A step above some some bar band I suppose. C-list rather than D-list I guess. I don't have a strong opinion on this article. --Herostratus (talk) 03:34, 18 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep I’ve been following this for a while now and although I don’t have an impressive list of Wikipedia edits, I do donate to the site no less than 4-5 times a year and contribute to it staying alive/active. I’ve also been on both sides of the music industry (both the musician and business sides). That said, I feel my opinion on this topic is warranted. I finally decided to speak up because just yesterday I was watching the NFL on Fox and saw none other than the name “Avery Watts” come up on the screen with his song “A Cut Above” being played. This is not the first, nor second, or even third time this has happened. I’ve seen all the links people have provided here as well as the original page and I think the facts need to be cleared up:

1. His music has been played on multiple mainstream outlets. - There’s a video Right Here being housed off of NFL.com (which would indicate this is a video produced by the NFL and cannot be faked) that is clearly set to his song “A Cut Above” – as shown in the chyron credit. I know first-hand that you need to be what is deemed “notable” to have any music associated with major league sports in an official capacity. These networks typically only pull from Major Label catalogs and have licensing deals with those entities to even clear the music. That would mean an artist would need a top-tier publishing deal with a PRO (performing rights organization), not to mention they would have to warrant a level of popularity for the network to even feel they’re popular enough to augment their programming. Sure enough, here’s an entire Avery Watts catalog with BMI. Now, the outsider may not consider this very “notable”, but as a guy in the business, I think it’s not only notable, it's nearly impossible for an independent artist (not on a major label or major-indy) to get played and credited both on ESPN, the NFL and every other sports outlet this guy has been on. I honestly wish I had his agent a few years back! I’ve seen videos of Avery's music on anything from skateboarding, to F1 Racing (they did an Official video of Sebastian Vettel winning the championships in Abu Dhabi to Avery Watts - A Cut Above). He even penned a custom song for 3-Time Olympic Medalist Megan Jendrick to act as her walk-up music for competition, which she talked about in Fitness RX Magazine - See Steve Blechman. Alex Gonzalez uses Avery Watts “A Cut Above” as his walk-up music in MLB games as well - See one reference here, more can be found. The list goes on…

2. He’s been interviewed live on ESPN: - The interview is Right Here. Yes, it’s being housed on YouTube, but it’s clearly the original ESPN broadcast – not just some kid in his bedroom with his iPhone lip-syncing to Britney Spears. I know YouTube links are basically shunned here, but If I see Motley Crue getting interviewed on Piers Morgan, and I only find the video on YouTube (because CNN didn’t archive it and it’s old), then are you saying it didn’t really happen? This is clearly not something they do with every “bar band” that happens on the field. I’ve never actually seen any other musical act interviewed on ESPN, come to think of it. I could be wrong. It also appears there used to even be a Wikipedia article for The Takeover EP (mentioned in the video) but it got deleted – Even though it’s in AllMusic here and Avery’s holding in his hand on ESPN talking about the release. It seems odd that someone would basically deem this CD “doesn’t exist in an official capacity” – which is what I’ve come to know Wikipedia to be the authority of.

3. He did play the Half-Time show at the Rose Garden for the Trail Blazers in front of nearly 22,000 people. - Although I agree with Captain Screebo, and the original reference for this didn’t say much (I think it may have originally said more) here’s a site for it under “Random Game Note”. The words spoken about the guy aren’t very flattering, but the entire forum talks almost more about the Avery Watts performance than they do the actual game. Seems like something worth noting to me considering it’s only the second time in history they’ve had a band play half-time in the Rose Garden (arena).

4. He's had notable media cover his National Tour. - He’s had segments on both CBS (see here) and ABC (since removed, but searchable) as well as multiple articles such as Examiner.com (search 'Avery Watts Examiner'). Here’s toured with P.O.D. - See Here - Including a show at Qualcomm Stadium,  as well as Lynyrd Skynyrd - Photo Here

5. Major Musical Sponsors - It appeared previously that the article was plugging a bunch of music companies as well. Now, I thought the same thing until I Googled the names with Avery Watts. I discovered he actually has deals with all these companies. Once again, I can tell you first-hand, this is no easy task. You need to prove you’re notable enough to increase the sales of their products by mentioning your name on their site. This is usually reserved for touring acts on big labels. They typically dislike doing web updates (to add artists to their sites) and need a really good reason to do it. That said, I found Avery on D'Addario (Here), Eminence Speakers, PreSonus (Here), Krank Amplification (Here), and Warmoth Guitars (Here). On this company Voodoo Lab (which makes high-end guitar electronics) Avery’s name is right next to Billy Joel and the Beach Boys. I don’t see any of my friend’s bands up there (which they would love). He even has endorsement deals outside of music. On Labrada Nutrition, he’s on a celebrity list along with The Rock, Janet Jackson, The Jonas Brothers and just about every professional athlete known to man. I don’t know any musician even sponsored by a nutrition company, let alone on a list like that.

6. Serious Numbers - He’s got almost ‘Justin Bieber’ music plays - almost 53,000,000 on Myspace, a few million on YouTube, almost half a million on Last FM. The last guys that did numbers like that by themselves were Hollywood Undead and Soulja Boy, and that escalated them nearly by itself to mainstream “A-List” status.

7. Video Game Placement - I found that Avery is the title track (menu music) for the popular mobile game “Hockey Fight Pro”, which appears to be topping the iTunes charts in Canada. That seems like it’s worth mentioning.

8. 50 Cent Endorsement - He’s the only Rock artist (to my knowledge) that’s been featured on ThisIs50.com – for those who don’t know, this is the personal social networking site of 50 Cent (ranked in the top 2000 sites in the world) and 50 has stated many times in interviews that all content generated for his site has to be approved by himself personally. It may be a stretch, but that says to me Avery is basically getting a 50 Cent endorsement. If we don't want to push it that far, we can agree that 50 found Avery Watts notable enough to help drive traffic to ThisIs50.com – because let’s face it, why would he want to put garbage on his site that he wants to continuously build in order to monetize web advertising?

9. The Hollywood Music in Media Award for Best Rock - I agree with Herostratus that although it may not be a well-known award show as of yet, living in Southern California I can tell you that any media award being given out in Hollywood at the Kodak Theatre (televised no less) is significant. This isn’t some tee-ball trophy given out in Skokie, Illinois. This would indicate there is some level of notoriety and popularity associated with Avery’s music (hence, Music in Hollywood Media), or it wouldn’t even be on the map. Just because the guy who wrote the theme song for your favorite TV show never won an Emmy for it (or has a record deal with Sony) doesn’t make him any less notable; that’s just my opinion.

10. IMVU Charts - Although he's not topping the Billboard Charts, I did find a screen shot of him outselling a large number of mainstream artists (including Eminem, Katy Perry and Ke$ha on IMVU. This is significant to me because IMVU is fan-generated. Labels can't come in and "inflate" any of those numbers (as they've been known to do). That's a site, in my opinion, that reflects what people are listening to and sharing with each other - outside of the controlled mainstream media.

To step off of my soap box: - I feel the need to defend this article because, although I don’t know Avery from Joe, I’d like to think Wikipedia is truly a place of Neutrality controlled by “the people” – outside of the major media machine. Call me a bleeding heart, but I’d like to think if some nobody from Nebraska can go on a killing spree and be deemed “notable enough” to be on Wikipedia, I would hope an independent musician who’s clearly breaking some new ground here could be deemed notable as well. The conversation here is about if this page should be deleted or not. Fact is, I’ve been getting Google alerts about the guy for over a week and I haven’t seen an arguable “nobody” pop up on more sites, in more countries, in more languages than Avery Watts. I even saw one site that claimed they had backend knowledge of him being the “most pirated rock artist of 2011”. Now, this clearly can’t be confirmed or deemed “notable” (they don’t give out Grammys for ‘Largest Underground Success via Illegal downloads’), but the point that it says to me this guy isn’t going anywhere and deleting the page would be in vain; He’ll just come right back.

I consider Wikipedia to be the ultimate source of what “exists” in the world. Not only that, I feel like it’s a site built “by the people, for the people,” if you will. That being said, people are clearly talking about Avery Watts and he has some level of notability – If he didn’t, would everyone on this site be dedicating hours of their lives (over the span of over 2 weeks) discussing it? If something is irrelevant (hence, not notable) you don’t even speak about it. We have almost an entire forum here on the topic. That says it all to me. To reiterate Keep --Thorshen (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.234.70 (talk) 16:17, 19 December 2011 (UTC) - 64.134.234.70 has made no other edits outside this topic.


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, v/r - TP 16:31, 19 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Jeez! just an observation about the above, for someone who says "although I don’t know Avery from Joe" the above anon IP poster manages to write almost 12kb on this artist and dig up a ton of (trivial and fairly unconvincing) "facts". Hell, way to go, that stuff just seems to be right out there at your fingertips, wierd that I didn't hit all of this stuff 4 pages deep into a Google search. Just saying.
 * Oh and what's with the faked Thorshen username signature? "User account "Thorshen" is not registered." Smells like a whole barrel of fish here, someone who knows how to use WP and manipulate it, imho.  Captain Screebo Parley! 18:22, 19 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep it's clear he's notable enough, as illustrated above, the page just needs to make sure it's clean and referenced appropriately. There are bigger fish to fry. I was just on the page for Yelawolf and there's only 3 references in literally the first 20 sentences of the article. So because someone has a record deal, and technically meets WP:MUSIC, all kinds of unsubstantiated claims can be made with no sources? It seems like efforts could be better utilized elsewhere than debating about minutia on here. AlphaSur (talk) 12:33, 20 December 2011 (UTC) — AlphaSur (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Delete - Appears to fail WP:MUSICBIO. I found very little non-trivial coverage in reliable sources.--Unionhawk Talk E-mail 15:01, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep Looks like the keep votes are backing up their points with facts and references, i.e. making scholarly arguments. The kind of arguments that might be suitable for an encyclopedia .  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.104.132 (talk) 02:58, 21 December 2011 (UTC) - 71.105.104.132 has made no other edits outside this topic.

I would think these two sources Here & Here satisfy Article #4 of WP:MUSICBIO "Has received non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources of an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country." Also, if this broadcast itself is deemed a "substantial segment", This would satisfy Article #12 of WP:MUSICBIO "Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or TV network." AlphaSur (talk) 13:21, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete: The references in the article are not sufficient to meet WP:MUSICBIO or WP:GNG. Other references raised above are trivial (like the last 2 by AlphaSur: the first is about only 1 local concert, the second is less than that--it's just a concert schedule), or aren't reliable. Finally, just as a note, the IP above is wrong on multiple accounts: Wikipedia is not a catalogue of everything that exists, and just because a few people here happen to be fans and are devoting hours and hours of their time to keeping the article is not sufficient to keep the article--the subject must meet our notability guideline. Now, all of that being said, it looks entirely possible that, in a little more time (maybe another major album, maybe a song breaking into some national charts), Avery could become notable, just not yet. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well stated points by Qwyrxian and good to know. I do have a question though (as I'm still a little new to this) - How does a person quantify an artist meeting #11 of WP:MUSICBIO which states, The artist Has been placed in rotation nationally by any major radio or music television network.. I listen to Faction (Sirius XM) and have heard Avery Watts on there many times. I would imagine that would be considered "in rotation", but where do you link something like that? In the same right, if an artist had a music video spinning on MTV how could you link that to a reliable source unless they did a write-up on them (which would not fall under Article #11, but Article #1 or #4)? It appears that both of those instances would meet #11 on WP:MUSICBIO but would be very difficult (if not impossible) to reference.  Any suggestions? AlphaSur (talk) 01:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.