Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Azeri genocide


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  MBisanz  talk 11:19, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Azeri genocide
( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)


 * Delete Poorly sourced, virulently anti-Armenian in tone article with absolutely no historical basis to it and one which is not even recognized by a single genocide scholar (the PACE source is inadequate and highly misleading as it is a non-binding resolution and one which the Council of Europe doesn't officially recognize in any capacity). --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 01:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Check the article again ,historical basis is well explaned.85.105.157.122 (talk) 14:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete per Marshall. VartanM (talk) 04:55, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. Where to start? No real references. Croissant's book was never referenced, simply placed under references. The bibliography, which appeared to be what someone found after a 3 minute google search, had books not referenced in the article. My 17yr old son does a better job of historical research than this! --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No real references?You should check the article ,too.If you have time except deleting the citations or a section.85.105.157.122 (talk) 14:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you read? You should learn how REAL historical research is done. Typing something doesn't make it a fact! --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:40, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. politically motivated POV propagand. no reliable sources. Gazifikator (talk) 05:39, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. No reliable sources. Sardur (talk) 06:50, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Wikipedia has a very low threshold on what genocide is. If there are articles like Greek genocide, Assyrian Genocide, or Dersim genocide, then why the article about Azeri genocide cannot exist? Grand  master  08:15, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If you want to propose the deletion of the Dersim genocide article, then I would support that proposal as long as its contents, with the genocide allegation, were to be merged into the Dersim rebellion article. Meowy 16:03, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I won't bother. The word genocide has already lost any meaning, as it is used in wiki to describe any massacre. If that's the way they want it, so be it. To me, genocide is an extremely politicized term, and the existence of the above articles is a good demonstration of this fact. Grand  master  07:48, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, maybe at some future date I will propose its deletion. It is precisely to stop the word "genocide" loosing its correct meaning that articles like this "Azeri genocide" article (or the deleted "Kurdish genocide" one) should not be allowed to remain. Meowy 19:41, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete I tried prodding this article but that didn't work. I'm glad others noticed it's violation of NPOV. Themfromspace (talk) 08:16, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Double Standards. What is your obsession with Turks? Greek genocide, Assyrian Genocide, and Dersim genocide already exist on Wikipedia even though Dersim genocide has no document or recognition.However Azeri Genocide was recognized by Council of Europe and Azerbaijani Government.It is ironic, Armenians allways complain about denial of Armenian Genocide by Turkey but they deny Azeri Genocide.Abbatai (talk) 10:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The concept is by no means "recognized by the Council of Europe", but only by 30 representatives of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (that is less than 5% from the total of 636 representatives), and that on a personal basis only: the declaration states that "[it] commits only the members who have signed it". Of those 30 individuals, 20 happen to be either from Azerbaijan or Turkey. - Ev (talk) 16:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe this article does warrant inclusion. The all references given is reliable source in my opinion.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justice34 (talk • contribs) 14:28, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 14:37, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete all material that doesn't come from reliable sources per WP:V. The "double-standards" thing is a fair comment, but see WP:OCE for Wikipedia's view on that.— S Marshall   Talk / Cont  15:05, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete Poorly sourced, no scholarly source agrees with the article claims.--St. Hubert (talk) 15:40, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. This article, together with its talk page, is a piece of propaganda. This article should go the same way as the late, unlamented, "Kurdish Genocide" article (Articles for deletion/Kurdish genocide (WWI)) (though even it had one source, unlike this particular article). Meowy 15:53, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This one also has a source, the decree of Azerbaijani president, referring to the massacre in Khojaly as a genocide. Also a declaration of some members of PACE, who also believe that Khojaly was an act of genocide. It is exactly as many sources as the articles about other genocides have, but no one cares about those other articles, and this one is proposed for deletion. I understand that the existence of other poorly sourced articles does not justify the existence of another poorly sourced article, but a fair treatment would be nice. Otherwise this place turns into the mouthpiece of anti-Turkish propaganda. It is no good that some well organized ethnic communities managed to impose their POVs into wikiarticles. Something needs to be done to maintain objectivity. Grand  master  07:48, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Everyone those with a half a brain cell know that the claimed PACE document is trash which was an answer to this draft tabled on 24 April 2001 by Jirousova (Czech Republic) on the day of the commemoration of the Armenian Genocide. That PACE document which you are referring to was tabled on 26 April 2001 by Mehmet Ali Irtemçelik (Turkey), who is known apologist and the voice of the Turkish government in Germany. 2/3 (20 out of 30) of those who have signed that draft were either from Turkey or Azerbaijan. Several of the remaining are also known propagandists pushing the inclusion of Turkey in the EU (and who oppose the recognition of the Armenian genocide). For example, Tadeusz Iwinski or Younal Said Loutfi. The content of that draft is so ridiculous (not to say, the surprise of the majority of PACE members when they saw anyone even supporting such a draft) that even Azeri lobbyist in the US only refer to the draft and don't dare raising it's content. (for instance that On 26 February 1992, Armenians massacred the whole population of Khodjaly and fully destroyed the city.) As for well organized community if I were you I would not bring up the word well organized anywhere. If you want to oppose it's deletion, go ahead, otherwise stop WP:SOAPboxing. VartanM (talk) 18:01, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Grandmaster, you do have a point about double standards and the virtues of "fair treatment", and I appreciate that you raise awareness of those issues here. You're right: something needs to be done.


 * Deleting this particular entry is a step in the right direction, by both removing sub-standard content (to say the least) and helping to raise the threshold for inclusion in this type of topics: such precedents can simplify the deletion of other similar entries.


 * I would really, but really love to delete a substantial part of the entries on genocides, massacres, ethnic cleansings, attrocities, minor battles & skirmishes... all those "look how bad [radom ethnic group] are !!!" type of entries that plague Wikipedia. In my opinion, the tiny encyclopedic significance of a substantial portion of those claims of victimhood does not justify the amount of time they demand from non-partisan editors to make them compliant with our content policies.


 * However, actually deleting those entries involves an unpaid volunteer willing to check all kind of sources and websites dealing with the worst of human nature... willing to read often depressing & exhasperating talk page discussions (and rants)... and willing to iniciate a discussion whose quality is much too often marked by the already standard accusations of [Ethnic-group]phobia.


 * My apologies, but right now I really don't want to do those things to propose other similar entries for deletion. However, when someone actually starts the process, I will try to do my little part in eliminating a small portion of this poison from what is supposed to be a simple encyclopedia (not a free megaphone from which to claim victimhood). - Best, Ev (talk) 17:42, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that a lot of the articles on that genocide list do not deserve to be there and some serious pruning is required. But I don't think it would be that difficult to remove most of the unsubstantiated ones - there will be editors around who will know enough about each specific subject to distinguish the fake from the real. I've already mentioned to Grandmaster that if he wants to propose the deletion of the Dersim genocide article, I would support him. But I wonder why he is taking part in this discussion. He is neither supporting the retention of the Azeri genocide article, or supporting its deletion. And when given support for the deletion of an article he does objects to, he rejects that support. Meowy 20:08, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, I agree: if someone does the necessary checking of / search for sources, and the subsequent corroborations, it won't be so difficult to remove those entries. I just tried to explain why, according to my perception, few people are actually doing that work. As for Grandmaster's participation in this discussion, I think that by merely raising those issues his imput was productive & helpful, as a reminder of the bigger picture. :-) - Best, Ev (talk) 20:25, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep If the genocide didn't happen where is the Azeri population of Yerevan and Karabakh.Please keep the article.As some said denying is killing twice!193.140.194.148 (talk) 21:41, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, thank you for that rambling trip to nowhere. And your comments on... anything relevant would be? Personal opinions and beliefs are not a valid rationale for deletion. If you believe it notable, improve the article yourself (mainly through neutral sourcing - which, no offence, I'd love to see you attempt). +Hexagon1 (t) 02:30, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And where is the Armenian population of Baku and Nakhichevan? Are you able to discern ethnic cleansing from genocide? --Vacio (talk) 09:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you able to discern a relevant topic from an irrelevant one? This is a deletion discussion for a badly written POV article. Not the Hague tribunals. +Hexagon1 (t) 13:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete, this is a no-brainer. Hideously POV, and unsourced. Completely unsalvageable. +Hexagon1 (t) 02:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I do not understand the double standard Wikipedia has when it comes to Armenians. Is it because of turcophobia, racism, religion or because considerable amount of moderators in this site are Armenians? Has any international court recognized Armenian Genocide? Not to my recollection. Yet, it is stated in this site as if the events of 1915 were indeed genocide when there is still a considerable amount of debate going on over the topic and many world renowned historians reject the thesis, I repeat it is merely a thesis at this stage. I would like to see some objectivity in this site with regards to history and historians and if you are going to be deleting Azeri Genocide then you should also be deleting Armenian Genocide and all other made up genocides.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.115.14.179 (talk) 07:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep, purely for fairness and NPOV. It's interesting to see Armenian editors nominating or overwhelming voting to remove articles on other nation's genocides, or simply trying to remove facts, photos or references from articles like Khojaly massacre in past. Why? If not for POV pushing and OR, then for what? Atabəy (talk) 08:03, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm Armenian?? Amazing! My apologies to Vartan for interrupting, but I couldn't resist.... --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:54, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * WP:WAX doesn't mean we get to keep pages because other (inapropriate) pages exist, it means we should go ahead and delete any particular page if it doesn't fit in with the policies and guidelines. Themfromspace (talk) 09:30, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Not much evidence is needed anymore to understand your true purpose here, but sometimes it helps when you reiterate your purpose for others to witness. VartanM (talk) 18:01, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * VartanM, you should have asked that question to yourself, and perhaps, this ArbCom based on your false accusations against an editor, only due to his ethnic background, would help refresh the mind. The only thing that does not make sense to truly neutral mind is when someone extensively advocates recognition of genocides suddenly tries to hide, fight off, remove, rename some factual evidence from encyclopedic articles. Isn't that part of nationalistic battleground editing? Ask yourself, why would Armenian editors get involved in nominating every Azeri massacre articles or images for deletion or removal, but we would rarely ever see a reverse trend? Atabəy (talk) 01:28, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And by reverse trend do you mean when you were denying the Armenian Genocide and have now voted to keep this trash? VartanM (talk) 02:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a suggestion, perhaps you might want to translate this article to az.wiki before it gets deleted from here. VartanM (talk) 02:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete, per WP:OR. --Vacio (talk) 09:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep, then go ahead delete the socalled genocides why the only matter is Azeri Genocide for those people?Abbatai (talk) 17:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Feel free to nominate other genocide articles for deletion. Otherwise you were already told about WP:WAX VartanM (talk) 18:01, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * But this one did happen and has sources and recognition.Abbatai (talk) 20:03, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Just because you think it happened, doesn't mean it did. It has no valid sources or recognition and is a fabrication. Meowy 00:02, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The last phase of a genocide is denial as some of you are doing now.85.105.157.122 (talk) 14:02, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep seems notable and Keep worthy to me.--Judo112 (talk) 17:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. As currently framed, the entry is a propaganda pamphlet infringing virtually every content policy we have. Maintainability issues make me skeptical of other possible alternatives: some entries are simply not worth the vast amounts of time they demand from non-partisan editors to assure compliance with our policies. – To avoid future problems, I recommend protecting both capitalizations from re-creation, to ensure re-creation through deletion review only. - Ev (talk) 20:05, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. Atabay has a very good point up there about the Armenian editors here but noone including VartanM dares answer him other than indicating that what is provided here is trash or propaganda. It is really very sad and disturbing to see that this Turcophobia of some small minds is taking over Wikipedia. So called Armenian Genocide is just a thesis but Wikipedia is reflecting it as a real and committed genocide through brainwashing young minds just because Armenian editors want it that way. Political acception because some countries have hidden agendas against Turkey does not mean international recognition. Historians decide that. Oh sorry according to some, it is just how things are done, I just forgot, my apologies. There are many world renowned historians disagreeing with the thesis and then accused or labelled of being pro-Turk and that is not propaganda? So sad. Just because the editors are Christians or Armenians allow them to reflect debateable issues as happened but when it comes to indicating a massacre with proof, it is propaganda. Go on then, make new genocides up like Greek or Assyrian and continue to publish them. Show to world how credible wikipedia information is. Two wrongs do not add up to one right some say up there. Azeri Turks in certain regions did not vanish from earth's space just in one night. Whether that makes it a genocide, that I can not decide. Historians are here to do that, not Armenian editors. Therefore I urge from those who think that just because there are other articles in this site in similar positions to be deleted does not mean that this one should be kept, to be that sensitive to those debateable articles as well. If there are other articles in similar positions about genocide thesis that you agree up there, then where is your critism to those articles. Please guys try to be a little bit objective at least. That is the least you can do.ECDS (talk) 08:54, 13 March 2009 (UTC) — ECDS (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment. I forgot to add one thing. Even the picture used in armenian genocide section in the site is not related to Armenians. It is a picture of Russian soldiers taken in Russian Civil War after WW1. Go ahead and delete my comments. That is just going to prove how right I am.ECDS (talk) 09:05, 13 March 2009 (UTC) — ECDS (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * And your thoughts on the WP:OR nature of the article in question are? You know, that is why we're here... no-one cares about your nationalistic rant. Whether we agree or disagree is utterly irrelevant. All you're doing is hindering the process of finding out whether this article complies with policy or not and stirring idiotic nationalism. It's not the "other nation" that stirs nationalistic hatred when you post your opinions on irrelevant high-traffic pages, it's you. +Hexagon1 (t) 09:43, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * *sigh* These boringly standard allegations of "[Ethnic-group-prefix]phobia", "racism", religious sympathies and "brainwashing" say more about the mind-set of those making them than about anything else. - Ev (talk) 16:26, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep i support a Keep of the article as it is supported by numerous sources. Just because it is about an issue some people perhaps doesnt recognize,doesnt mean it shouldnt have its own article. End of story.--MarkusBJoke (talk) 18:34, 13 March 2009 (UTC) But i however agree on that the article needs to be rewritten into a more neutral article. Just as the one of the Armenian genocide and sutch.--MarkusBJoke (talk) 18:36, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * A problem with this discussion is that nobody has yet done a paragraph-by-paragraph dissection of the article to demonstrate that every allegation within it is falsified to the extent that they are nothing more that propaganda, and the article's existence is a gross misuse of the very serious word "genocide". I am not going to do this time-consuming thing, mostly because I hope it will be clear to every well-informed good-faith editor who just reads the article that the article is indeed propaganda and a misuse of the word genocide. I think the way the discussion is going will result in the article's deletion - but if it is retained it needs to be re-nominated for deletion, this time with a proper dissection of its contents. Meowy 20:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * MarkusBJoke, your comparaison with the Armenian Genocide disqualifies your comment. I can create an article about bicycles and source my claims with notes about potatoes and individuals like you will claim it is well sourced and keep-worthy. Here is a section by section analysis of the article.


 * Russian Expansion of Caucasus. This section has nothing to do with the Armenians or the Azeri?


 * Massacres in 1905-1907, he copied the entire text from the Armenian-Tatar massacres 1905-1907. See the beginning of the second paragraph. He did not even bother to place a link on the lead of that section to the main article. THe wording doesn't give anyone the chance to understand that it was a both sided clash.


 * March Days, this has nothing to do with the prior events which was over a decade ago. Months later even a higher number of Armenians were killed. See September Days. Does this gives me the right to engage in OR and selectively take every massacres at the hands of the Azeri and create another Armenian genocide article?


 * Khojaly Massacre, what is it's relation with events having happemed ¾ of a century ago?


 * International Recognition, which one, the Council of Europe never recognized such a thing.


 * Political, he copied that section word for word from here.


 * The intro of the article does not even coincide with its content, it starts with: The Azeri Genocide refers the mass killing of Azeri people by Armenians during World War 1 and The Nagorno-Karabakh War. None of the events described in the text have happened in WWI. Obviously this inaccurate info was placed there as an apologetics rhetoric to claim that Armenians massacred too in WWI and paralleling it with the Armenian Genocide. As for NK war, only one event described here happened during the course of the NK war.


 * Now go back to the Armenian Genocide article with its 181 notes and take a look at it and then come back with such a comparaison. VartanM (talk) 21:49, 14 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Vartan M, the Armenian Genocide section of this website is so biased that I do not even know where to start with. First of all as I indicated before the picture used in the site has not any relation whatsoever to Armenians or Turks but was taken in Russian Civil War after WW1. The many commnunities of the Armenian Diaspora had been founded long before the events of 1915 in late 19th century to make Armenians seperate land from Ottoman Empire which indeed led to events of 1915. SD Hunchakian Party and ARF(Dashnaktsutiun) were founded late 19th century with differing ideologies but similar goals. They sided with Russians in WW1 to achieve their goal of Great Armenia and backstabbed Ottoman Army but they started their massacrings of Muslims and Turks long before that. A quick look at the Niles-Sutherland report is enough to prove the situation of Turks and Armenians after WW1. They were never suppressed under Ottoman ruling and they even had seats in the Parliament. Many were dealing with trade and they were managing silk factories (sourced from Jean Louis Mattei). The Malta Tribunals of the British proved Turks innocent as stated in many telegraphs sent at that time. Here are some of them:


 * The letter sent by Craigie, the British Ambassador in Washington to Lord Curzon:


 * July 13th, 1921


 * ‘I am sorry to say that nothing to be used against the Turks prosecuted in Malta as proof could be found.’


 * Foreign Office Archives F.O. 371/6504/E. 8519


 * The letter sent by British Attorney Generalship in Malta to British Foreign Office:


 * July 29th, 1921


 * ‘No proof against Turks prosecuted has been found.’


 * Foreign Office Archives F.O. 371/6504/E. 8745


 * Here is an extract from the report given to II. Socialist International by Mikael Varangian to specify some of those goals of Dashnaks:


 * 'We organized in most parts of Anatolia.
 * Our organizations are comprised of mobile and stationary units, groups responsible for funding and logistics, groups of women responsible for communication and dispatching and groups of intellectuals responsible for making propaganda.
 * Our guerillas killed the Mayor of Van.
 * We attempted to assassinate Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamit.
 * Our bomb store was captured by Ottoman Security Forces.'


 * The site does not even make reference to Manifesto of First Prime Minister of Armenia Katchaznouni where he technically admits that they killed many Muslims and Turks in the region to gain freedom from the Empire and that they sided with Russia and then when Russia failed them they lost everything.


 * The section talks about international recognition where indeed it is no more than political recognition by 21 countries and indeed no international court has made any decision related to the dispute so far which they can not when there are so many contradicting views and opinions over the topic.


 * There are not any references made to historians with counter-claims who spent their entire lives studying the subject matter on hand like Erich Feigl, Justin Mcarthy, Bernard Lewis, Stanford Shaw other than labelling them agents of the Turkish goverment. Should I continue?


 * If that is your sytle of objectivity and basis of critism of other articles, I rest my case.ECDS (talk) 09:00, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment I do not remember anywhere in my comment above I suggested that the article should be kept as it stands. It definitely needs modification and the use of word genocide should not be that easy. Am I repeating myself here or is it just me? Historians who spent their entire lives on history should not be overlooked and you can not just label an event genocide because your 'nationalistic rant' requires that way and unfortunately it works both ways. But you also can not ignore any massacre or wrongdoings done to any nation because they are not genocides. There is a historical fact here with proof. For objectivity's sake, the critisms should be on that basis and through out all other articles in Wikipedia not just this one. If that disturbs some people who indeed have real nationalistic rants but accuse others of having, that I can not do anything about. I repeat it for the last time, Azeri Turks did not vanish from Earth's space just in one night, whether that makes it a genocide, that I can not decide. It is historians call. Just show some objectivity to other historical incidents or events as well and critise on that basis, that is all I ask. ECDS (talk) 10:42, 14 March 2009 (UTC) — ECDS (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Delete – This article consists of little more than blatantly biased (statements such as "outrageous facts", "tragic history", and "clear sign of Armenian nationalism" speak for themselves) original research; though efforts have been made to improve it slightly, the very premise of the article is unsalvageable. It attempts to present a number of atrocities and repressions perpetrated over a period of more than a century and, indeed, separated by a period of more than 70 years, as "genocide". A genocide is a "deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group", and three distinct events in 1905, 1918, and 1992 do not a genocide make. And how is the Russian expansion into the Caucasus related to a claim of genocide by Armenians against Azeris? Perhaps a decent article could be written about the Azerbaijani day of observance ("day of genocide of Azerbaijanis", March 31), but this article is flawed at its core. –Black Falcon (Talk) 01:22, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.